OzVMX Forum
Marketplace => Wanted => Topic started by: SON on September 13, 2013, 11:47:09 pm
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In any condition
Also exhaust info?
Thanks
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You want to make a 250 slower? There's been a few of these nos kits for sale lately, mainly because they weren't any good. I know someone in brisbane with 2 of them, he may part with one.
There's a good read on a website from Doug Dubach and how he struggled racing one in the open class in 89..
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you loose the powervalve system when you fit the 360. From what I heard, the bikes aren't much faster, but are a fair bit torquier (is that a word?)...Dunno if its worth the effort myself...
In my humble opinion...
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In Doug Dubachs review he says his 250 was faster but the 360 had a lot of torque but wouldn't rev, much like the 360 Mugen where Mark Pace preferred to ride his 250..
A big piston on a short stroke 250 bottom end has never worked properly, good big bores have a long stroke motor.
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From 'Dave's not here man' page 182
In reference to having ridden Dubachs 360...
"I rode his 360 Yamaha that he races over here and the thing has not one horsepower more than my stock KX 250, he’s at such a disadvantage. But you wouldn’t think so watching him against the Honda 500’s."
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Thank you for your comments
I would still like to buy a barrell or a kit
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Thank you for your comments
I would still like to buy a barrell or a kit
I'll ask my mate if he wants to sell one of them. He's just finished building a bike with the other kit and hasn't ridden it yet. Who knows after he rides it...
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Wasn't there a source of new/remanufactured kits? And someone was fitting them to late model YZF frames? Or did I imagine it?
Is the kit fundamentally flawed, or is it just a matter of tweaking the porting/head/whatever to get them right?
The short stroke/big bore combination will surely limit it's potential compared to a properly designed motor, but you'd think that it would still be able to out-perform a 250 if the rest of it was right.
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Stroker and Bigbore, Digital Ignition and an Exhaust that works
I enjoy the challenge
Johnny please talk to your friend
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IMO
Just wait a few more months as the new 300 GP Two stroke class gains some movement. If someone doesn't have a 300 kit for new YZ Yamaha's soon Ill be shocked.
I thought those 360 kits only fitted older YZ's
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peter gruber ( billet yz)has one,im sure when he sees this he will comment one way or the other unless hes over in the maico thread bungin shit on my bikes
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400cc 2 smoke Digital Ignition Fuel Injection
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http://forum.ozvmx.com/index.php?topic=15416.msg154762#msg154762
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Why not just get a KTM 360/380 with all the hard work done for you?
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Wasn't there a source of new/remanufactured kits? And someone was fitting them to late model YZF frames? Or did I imagine it?
Yep MPS in the U.S., and are cheap considering, but I have heard they are a fairly shonky operator.
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From my conversations with Peter (billet yz) regarding the 360 yz I get the impression he loves it, don't think his wr500 has seen much dirt since he's had the yz up and running.
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Why not just get a KTM 360/380 with all the hard work done for you?
YAMAHA Dealer with a new YZ250 2 smoke and a rider capable of using open class 2 stroke power
Homage to Peter Doyle and Sharky at Broadford.
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The short stroke/big bore combination will surely limit it's potential compared to a properly designed motor, but you'd think that it would still be able to out-perform a 250 if the rest of it was right.
The combination doesn't work, they don't produce any more power than a 250 and don't rev. You're very busy on the gear lever because they don't pull for long in each gear.
I had a $10,000 360 Mugen which is the same setup, I tried everything to make it work..different compression ratios, different port heights, different carby's and ended up selling it because my 79 cr250 was faster and pulled longer in each gear.
There isn't a short stroke big bore engine around that does work..
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From my conversations with Peter (billet yz) regarding the 360 yz I get the impression he loves it, don't think his wr500 has seen much dirt since he's had the yz up and running.
No doubt he does like it, it's rare and cool and would be fun to ride compared to a WR500 dinosaur but in a mx race against 89 CR & KX500's... good luck!
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Why not just get a KTM 360/380 with all the hard work done for you?
YAMAHA Dealer with a new YZ250 2 smoke and a rider capable of using open class 2 stroke power
Homage to Peter Doyle and Sharky at Broadford.
Cast up some covers with Yamaha on them ;) You should ring me about this literaly anything is possible today.
The short stroke/big bore combination will surely limit it's potential compared to a properly designed motor, but you'd think that it would still be able to out-perform a 250 if the rest of it was right.
The combination doesn't work, they don't produce any more power than a 250 and don't rev. You're very busy on the gear lever because they don't pull for long in each gear.
I had a $10,000 360 Mugen which is the same setup, I tried everything to make it work..different compression ratios, different port heights, different carby's and ended up selling it because my 79 cr250 was faster and pulled longer in each gear.
There isn't a short stroke big bore engine around that does work..
Pipe, ignition and head shape is where the answer is.
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Call in next time your driving past
I was going to call you once I had a barrell
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Why not just get a KTM 360/380 with all the hard work done for you?
YAMAHA Dealer with a new YZ250 2 smoke and a rider capable of using open class 2 stroke power
Homage to Peter Doyle and Sharky at Broadford.
Cast up some covers with Yamaha on them ;) You should ring me about this literaly anything is possible today.
The short stroke/big bore combination will surely limit it's potential compared to a properly designed motor, but you'd think that it would still be able to out-perform a 250 if the rest of it was right.
The combination doesn't work, they don't produce any more power than a 250 and don't rev. You're very busy on the gear lever because they don't pull for long in each gear.
I had a $10,000 360 Mugen which is the same setup, I tried everything to make it work..different compression ratios, different port heights, different carby's and ended up selling it because my 79 cr250 was faster and pulled longer in each gear.
There isn't a short stroke big bore engine around that does work..
Pipe, ignition and head shape is where the answer is.
I still don't believe it will work, bore and stroke is all wrong. A KTM 250/300 has an 8mm longer stroke by comparison..
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Johnny it will work when I stroke long rod and balance the crank
Lozza has programmable ignitions that work
Doesn't need to rev if it's pulling your arms out
250cc 2 strokes have to be revved
400cc 2 strokes are just right
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Yeah SON I agree it will be much better with a longer stroke crank..
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Apart from the weight of the piston, what stops a 360 from revving as hard as a 250 with the same stroke?
The old Husky 360GPs were short stroke - they certainly didn't have a problem with not revving hard enough.
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Apart from the weight of the piston, what stops a 360 from revving as hard as a 250 with the same stroke?
The bigger volume it has to compress. A longer stroke also has more leverage to turn the crank easier.
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in terms of what works & what doesn't--the old SC500 is way oversquare with a stroke from the 360 of 70mm & bore of [not sure without looking] 90mm or something, which is 10mm over the 80mm 360 it was stretched out from--plus a 4 speed box come to think of it. Rode one occasionally in big flat or rolling grassy miniature tt's we use to call them & on the day [my good day haha] was quicker than my mates RN400. In fact our Hugh Anderson beat Ivan Miller for the nz mx champs back then on the SC & Ivan on the RN--was a great day that.
What's the stroke of the "89 250 your stretching to 360. Yams were typically 70x64 till [i think] went to 68x68 which i suspect this ["89 is] & YZ400F piston is 82mm, the only year they ran 82mm [have one in my old RT2-360.
I do have a 'way' oversquare 250 Yam that's 80x64--well--a 250 with a 360 cylinder, long story but turns on up top. Actually--actually forgot where i was now as a mate turned up on a mint original XR500 twinshock while writing this, & now [i want one]. Cheers.
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i hope people aren't getting confused between 'long rods' & 'long stroke'. I'm old [& confused most of the time] but gather long rod has something to do with piston dwelling longer at top & bottom of stroke. Lozza would be the man to explain but would a long rod plus long stroke be 'the go'.!! Thanks
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Apart from the weight of the piston, what stops a 360 from revving as hard as a 250 with the same stroke?
The bigger volume it has to compress. A longer stroke also has more leverage to turn the crank easier.
Heat(or lack thereof)in the pipe limits the rpm. Not so long ago GP125/250's ran 19:1 compression and they would not rev past 11,000, untill tuners started wrapping the pipe in heat wrap. A few years later after exotic leaded 124 octane Elf Blue Gas was banned, comp ratio's dropped heat in the pipe increased so no need to wrap the pipe any longer.
Johnny it will work when I stroke long rod and balance the crank
Lozza has programmable ignitions that work
Doesn't need to rev if it's pulling your arms out
250cc 2 strokes have to be revved
400cc 2 strokes are just right
Taking about a proper cylinder not the rubbish that Japan Inc has been serving up recently. A friend in NZ has prototyped a 350cc disc valve engine with modern features like a cassette gearbox and water cooled cases. Should be a right weapon.
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in terms of what works & what doesn't--the old SC500 is way oversquare with a stroke from the 360 of 70mm & bore of [not sure without looking] 90mm or something, which is 10mm over the 80mm 360 it was stretched out from--plus a 4 speed box come to think of it. Rode one occasionally in big flat or rolling grassy miniature tt's we use to call them & on the day [my good day haha] was quicker than my mates RN400. In fact our Hugh Anderson beat Ivan Miller for the nz mx champs back then on the SC & Ivan on the RN--was a great day that.
What's the stroke of the "89 250 your stretching to 360. Yams were typically 70x64 till [i think] went to 68x68 which i suspect this ["89 is] & YZ400F piston is 82mm, the only year they ran 82mm [have one in my old RT2-360.
I do have a 'way' oversquare 250 Yam that's 80x64--well--a 250 with a 360 cylinder, long story but turns on up top. Actually--actually forgot where i was now as a mate turned up on a mint original XR500 twinshock while writing this, & now [i want one]. Cheers.
Pleased you have told this story as I have an ex Ivan Miller RN
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A longer rod for any given stroke will cause the piston to dwell more at TDC and less at BDC than a shorter rod does.
Cheers.
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Apart from the weight of the piston, what stops a 360 from revving as hard as a 250 with the same stroke?
The bigger volume it has to compress. A longer stroke also has more leverage to turn the crank easier.
Heat(or lack thereof)in the pipe limits the rpm. Not so long ago GP125/250's ran 19:1 compression and they would not rev past 11,000, untill tuners started wrapping the pipe in heat wrap. A few years later after exotic leaded 124 octane Elf Blue Gas was banned, comp ratio's dropped heat in the pipe increased so no need to wrap the pipe any longer.
Johnny it will work when I stroke long rod and balance the crank
Lozza has programmable ignitions that work
Doesn't need to rev if it's pulling your arms out
250cc 2 strokes have to be revved
400cc 2 strokes are just right
Taking about a proper cylinder not the rubbish that Japan Inc has been serving up recently. A friend in NZ has prototyped a 350cc disc valve engine with modern features like a cassette gearbox and water cooled cases. Should be a right weapon.
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I thought those barrells were cast in Sweden
Designed in Europe for real MX Tracks
Not for hard fast USA
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Keep it simple boys how many races did the YZ360 win let alone championships,
#8
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Keep it simple boys how many races did the YZ360 win let alone championships,
#8
That's too obvious Gary, there's always someone that knows more than the facts..
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Didn't Dack run one at the aus titles in 90? The mud wouldn't have helped, but if there was any merit in the design, Dacka would have attempted to refine it (& win more titles)...
In my humble opinion...
Now...Any thoughts on a liquid cooled RM500? ;D
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Now...Any thoughts on a liquid cooled RM500? ;D
Now youre talkin! Harry Everts raced one in GP's in 83, very trick bike.. Although it was a RN500
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Kiss
I have an almost new 89 yz250 and an Eighty something kilo Beau Ralston to ride it
He has put a stock YZ250 into the top 5 of the MX Nats several times this year
I thought giving him a YZ360 would be an interesting exercise
If we get it right then see what happens
Especially with the return to 2 strokes by several high profile race teams
I also think the guys at Ohlins were not dumb dumbs and the 360 kit had a market.
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Now...Any thoughts on a liquid cooled RM500? ;D
Now youre talkin! Harry Everts raced one in GP's in 83, very trick bike.. Although it was a RN500
I have nearly enough works bits to build an 83 RN500 Replica just not enough time
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Kiss
I have an almost new 89 yz250 and an Eighty something kilo Beau Ralston to ride it
He has put a stock YZ250 into the top 5 of the MX Nats several times this year
I thought giving him a YZ360 would be an interesting exercise
If we get it right then see what happens
Especially with the return to 2 strokes by several high profile race teams
I also think the guys at Ohlins were not dumb dumbs and the 360 kit had a market.
Yeah it would be an interesting exercise, and a young aggressive rider will be fast on it whether its a 250 or 360..
I don't know what all the previous shit mentioned about digital ignitions, rotary valves and new modern cylinders has to do with it, it's a forkn pre 90 vintage bike!
Ohlins make brilliant suspension products but they're not engine people. Just because they built it doesn't mean it works.. But yes there was a market for it, if you we're a Yamaha contracted rider in the early 90's you couldn't ride the Open class without it!
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I built a stroker RM500 back in 1990/91 still have it,
even thinking of using it as the RN replica
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If you really want to evaluate the Ohlins kit put a 45-50yo rider on it, the same age as someone who would've ridden one in 89 and send them up here to race Bell, Armstrong and Deakin on their 89 CR500's...
Putting kids on vintage bikes to race old men doesn't prove a thing other than the kid doesn't belong there.
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Just buy this and do an engine swap lol,10 to 11 hour old bike that was made to boogie,tons of torque plus a smooth powerband all the way to the moon,best engine ever?,oh yeah, pretty close!
(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx325/dalesween/Photo0064.jpg) (http://s768.photobucket.com/user/dalesween/media/Photo0064.jpg.html)
cheers Dale.
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(http://[URL=http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/gbankier/media/yz001_zpsa79e308e.jpg.html][img width=582 height=800]http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a561/gbankier/yz001_zpsa79e308e.jpg)[/URL](http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a561/gbankier/yz2001_zpse7ec310f.jpg) (http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/gbankier/media/yz2001_zpse7ec310f.jpg.html)(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a561/gbankier/yz001_zpsa79e308e.jpg) (http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/gbankier/media/yz001_zpsa79e308e.jpg.html)[/img]
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If you really want to evaluate the Ohlins kit put a 45-50yo rider on it, the same age as someone who would've ridden one in 89 and send them up here to race Bell, Armstrong and Deakin on their 89 CR500's...
Putting kids on vintage bikes to race old men doesn't prove a thing other than the kid doesn't belong there.
I have never put young riders on old bikes to beat old riders
I have respect that is for sure
Ask Beatle or Gilesy
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Keep it simple boys how many races did the YZ360 win let alone championships,
I know this only enduro and doesn't count because it's not MX ::) But it did win a championship.
Stephane Peterhansel Yamaha YZ 360 WR(Kit Öhlins) Team Yamaha Sonauto,champion de France 1989.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1091198_420324181415577_958710854_o.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/904320_362671150514214_319528340_o.jpg)
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(http://[URL=http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/gbankier/media/yz001_zpsa79e308e.jpg.html][img width=582 height=800]http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a561/gbankier/yz001_zpsa79e308e.jpg)[/URL](http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a561/gbankier/yz2001_zpse7ec310f.jpg) (http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/gbankier/media/yz2001_zpse7ec310f.jpg.html)(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a561/gbankier/yz001_zpsa79e308e.jpg) (http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/gbankier/media/yz001_zpsa79e308e.jpg.html)[/img]
Thanks for posting that, I would have it packed away in a box but you've made it easy.
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Having ridden Peter Grubers (BILLETYZ) example of this bike in anger around Broadford I reckon it is probably the most tractable useable powered bike I have ever ridden, awesome snap out of corners with a very healthy top end hit as well.
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YZ400 based piston
YZ490 based rod
I have learnt a bit already
But no good without a barrell.
It will never be a CR500 but I would not want it to be one either
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You guys are painting a much better picture of it than Doug Dubach did.. There is one up here I could probably swing a leg over
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Is this based on the WR engine I know it has a longer stroke than the YZ.
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Is this based on the WR engine I know it has a longer stroke than the YZ.
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The WR250 motor was very closely related to the YZ motor of the same year - never a difference in the stroke (except, for a slim possibility of 1996, when the WR motor was still the old 94 YZ motor and the '96 YZ got a big update).
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94 got a longer stroke Yamaha must have shown some interest in the ohlins kit.
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Sorry guys, YZ250s from 90 to 98 had the same stroke. in the mid 90s, Yamaha experimented with the long rod kit with good results. This became the major upgrade of '99...The Long Rod kit worked well, I built about 6 myself, using the rod from an earlier model YZ & a 5.63mm spacer plate.YZ & YZ (WR) 250s of the 90s had the same motor, with the exception of a wide ratio gearbox...Hope this helps the debate...
In my humble opinion...
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Sorry guys, YZ250s from 90 to 98 had the same stroke. in the mid 90s, Yamaha experimented with the long rod kit with good results. This became the major upgrade of '99...The Long Rod kit worked well, I built about 6 myself, using the rod from an earlier model YZ & a 5.63mm spacer plate.YZ & YZ (WR) 250s of the 90s had the same motor, with the exception of a wide ratio gearbox...Hope this helps the debate...
In my humble opinion...
I was not clear last night... The basic point I was trying to make is that the 95 YZ got a minor update, and the 96 YZ got a significant update, but the 95 & 96 WRs were the same bike as the 94 WR - by 96, the YZ & WR were quite different bikes, simply due to the lack of updates to the WR (Bold New Graphics don't count...). That may have allowed a difference to creep in, but it wasn't a designed-in difference between the two - just a by-product of Yamaha's neglect of the WR.
In 1997, the two were brought back into line again.
Trainspotting:
The 95 YZ250 motor was the same basic animal as the 94 YZ & 94 WR. The main change to the 95 YZ motor was the updated barrel, which had a different power valve (added a resonance chamber on the LHS side of the barrel), different exhaust pipe flange, and tweaked porting.
I'm 99% sure that there was also a tweak to the cylinder head too, to try to avoid the 94 motor's tendency to ping.
The 95 & 96 WR motors missed out on those updates.
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& a kehin carb (for 95)...I had a 96 from new & the 95 was heaps better! (motor wise)...
In my humble opinion...
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Here's one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yamaha-YZ-1989-yamaha-ohlins-yz-360-yz-250-ahrma-yz-vintage-/121176911598?pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item1c36b4eeee&vxp=mtr
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& a kehin carb (for 95)...I had a 96 from new & the 95 was heaps better! (motor wise)...
In my humble opinion...
Ah, yes - wasn't thinking about carbs.
Pretty sure the 94~96 WRs actually had an ancient round-slide Mikuni on them. The 89/90 YZ250WRs had Mikuni flat slides like the YZs, so it seems weird that Yamaha went backwards in the early/mid 90s.
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Nice and pre 90
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just listened to Shaun Kalos on BTO podcast with Mathes, he airs his views on 360 kit he rode as a factory rider ( around 47 min mark ).
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Hell that "89 on Ebay looks nice, i see no plug lead hooked up, maybe the ignition system extra!!
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i that a 3pin multi plug thingy hanging down by the carb!!--ok i'll stop being a picky bastard.
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no chain
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sorry, shoulda looked at 'all' the pics first.--i want it for pre 90.
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Trick bike,cool looking pipe & those white handgrips :-*
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Neato looking Ohlins 360 kitted bike on OZ Fleabay http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/YAMAHA-YZ-360-1989-W-OHLINS-KITTED-/271292929140?pt=AU_Motorcycles&hash=item3f2a519474&_uhb=1
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That is a lovely bike and i would have it in my shed any day. $8k these days, justify expendature any way you like seems pricey- good luck Geoff.
Brett