OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: MauriceR on August 08, 2013, 05:38:10 am
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If this rumor actually come's true and they actually were reasonably priced I am sure there would be no shortage of potential customers around the world
http://forums.mxtrax.co.uk/showthread.php/343860-cz-twin-pipe
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I would say thats about as plausable as the alleged moon landings ;)
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I would say thats about as plausable as the alleged moon landings
Or the imminent release of the Chinese Metisses.
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On my recent over seas trip I saw one of the chineese metisee being tested at a well known california track by there R@R developement team
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Is it unlikely though? Manufacturers sell products, and only if there's a market. I have no idea what CZ sells today or if there even is a CZ (I have never even experienced the faintest twinge of interest in a CZ), but you can imagine if it weren't too expensive to remanufacture those old sleds that there would actually be a reasonable market.
Would such a thing be eligible for VMX?
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I rode my attended my first vintage event in 1991 in Ortho Belgium , it was a pre 65 event with a sidecar support ( I was crewing for an English sidecar team ) . Although the event was promoted as pre 65 I think there were a number of pre 70 solos and chairs as late as 1985 . I remember there were full fields of pre 65 bikes and loads of twin port CZs, at the time I didn't really know what they were ( looked like converted road bikes ) but were being ridden very fast on a beautiful natural terrain track in the Belgian countryside .
I do have home videos of the events somewhere ::) 9 possibly with the ex wife I will try to get back and get uploaded to youtube . We went to several events in Belgium and France 91,92,93 and my point is there were always loads and loads of twin pipers and side pipers at these events . I cant imagine they have disappeared and the blokes racing them then must be 20 yrs older so may not be racing anymore so in theory there are still plenty of originals up for grabs .
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/tmbill/CCI08082013_zps0209d7ae.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/tmbill/media/CCI08082013_zps0209d7ae.jpg.html)
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Would such a thing be eligible for VMX?
Why not? If replica Rickmans, Cheney's, HL's and their ilk are allowed, why not a TP CZ? As long as the bike was externally identical to it's historic predecessor I can't see a problem. Having said that I can't see there being much of a market for them. As Bill said there are still plenty of TP 250s around and even though it's a lot rarer, the 360 is ineligible for pre 65 due to it missing the release cutoff. It wouldn't be all that competitive in pre 70 or whatever the Euro or American class equivalents are. If you add that hardly anyone under 50 would have an iota of interest in them, the market would be restricted to self funded old retirees like me ;D too old to race them and too poor to buy them ::).
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Given that CZ are still around and manufacturing motorcycle and industrial chains it may well be plausible.CZ continued to make and sell MX bikes in Eastern Europe long after they ceased to be imported into the west.You'd reckon they would still have the patterns and tooling somewhere and certainly the blueprints and design drawings.Is there a market?maybe but it would be small.Aren't Maico twinshock bikes being re-manufactured by a British company?(bigger market though).
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MV went down this road with 500 tripple GP racer only to pull out once the true costings were known. A few new prototypes were made and given to Ago.
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Hi,
yes please, I'll take a 250 ,
let me know where and when I can pick it up
L O L
cheers
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. I remember there were full fields of pre 65 bikes and loads of twin port CZs,
Nice thing about having VIP at our 15th Anniversary, Jiri and Falta also confirmed that the CZ world was alive and well.
There is a bit of footage on youtube somewhere confirming this.
So I wouldn't put it past them to rebuild a twin pipe, of course if there planets all align. :)
cheers
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I guess if it did happen, pricing will be the clincher....what would you pay?...10K....the actual market would be very tiny, I mean, in Australia for example, you may sell a handful if your lucky, worldwide...maybe 200?...and that's over a period of years. Most VMXers would not fork out 10K for a bike....especially the old guy's, and a 20 year old would not be interested. To me it's a pipe dream, a bit like the chinnese Metises. You also have to remember that the world economy is poobar, if you think it's tough here, Europe is 50 times worse, in fact, I was talking to a importer the other day and most of the bikes they are bringing in are from Europe....Spain, Italy, Portugal etc, they are desperate for money. If you want that cheap SWM, Beta or whatever, now's the time. They are bringing container loads of Ducati's, BMW'S, Triumph's etc.
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At $5k, I'd buy one.
At $6k, I wouldn't.
At $10k, they'd be lucky to sell a couple of dozen worldwide...
I don't think these numbers are unrealistic, when you consider what a modern bike can be built for, the relative simplicity of the tooling, and the lack of R&D needed.
If they were close to race ready, I'd pay more - stuff like decent shocks, sensible spring rates, modern tyres etc. I sure as hell wouldn't be keen on paying more for authentic relic tyres etc...
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When Jiri and Falta came to Wandering here in WA . Jiri was building Brand New Blue tank 350cc twinpipes Price was $15000 US back in 07 ?? making about two units a year had a long waiting list even back then
Never say Never
Check out his Web page
http://www.starecveterancross.wz.cz/index_aj.html
Cheers
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If he had a long waiting list, he would employ people to knock them out quicker....at 15K....he wouldn't sell one in today's market.
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I also belive that Elvis is still alive and living next door to Firko? ;)
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Hi
who wouldn't buy a CZ twinport replica at $6000
I'll gladly pay $9000 for one, probably even more
I know what it will cost to rebuild a dead one ,
cheers
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Check out Jiri CV Fastest ZEDS in Europe :)
All of the big Euro Vintage MX fields are full of his creations
For me the best school of motocross was the two years taht I spent in Dukla Prague, the Army motorcycle club in the former Czechoslovakia. It was there that I raced with our finest riders - Falta, Velky, Baborovsky, Churavy and Stodulka. I learnt from them and also was able to represent my country at that time. After leaving Dukla Prague, I went to a professional club, SVS Strakonice, with a motocross track in Jinin. I ended my racing career in the late 1970s and went to work in the CZ factory at Strakonice in their special motocross machines were built for the world championships and I worked there for 10 years. It was a workplace where I could learn every technology of production through building very special motocross machinery. In 1989 I left the CZ factory and started working for myself from my home. Firstly, I started to make parts, frames, exhausts and handlebars for old CZ motorcycles. That grew to the point where I was soon making complete motorcycles and that it is what I still do now. I do virtually everything from making the sand moulds for pouring aluminum, through to building my own frames. Of course thhere are some parts which I must buy, like pistons, chains and wheelrims but I make all the other major engine, drive and gear components in my own workshop. Every one of my motorcycles is built to order for a particular customer and they are ordered for either racing, or for private collections of museums. For racing, I make some adjustments for better engine performance and some changes to the frames for better handling. My motorcycles are ridden mostly in Belgium, Holland, England and Italy and I use the original production technology in many cases. For example, the frame tubes are formed by hand, using sand to fill them and then bent on a flame. Not even a comuterised machine can reproduce the correct shapes of the bends and it is very time consuming to build these complete motorcycles. IT´S A JOB I LOVE VERY MUCH.
But even with my involvement as a builder, I missed my racing and started to go to veteran races in Belgium and the Netherlands. In 1997, I went to a meeting at Namur in Belgium where 20 former world champions were competing. There were three racing categories and I won one of them. It was great for me to sit at the same table as Harry Everts, Jim Pomeroy and the other legends and to talk with them. I have been riding CZ all of my life and I am still faithful to the name and I try to keep it alive today, so others can appreciate what it stands for. I make many spare parts and complete CZ motorcycles of models 968, 969 and ESO. Here in Czech, I have begun competing in motocross races called "Sumavsky Super Pohar" and organised by our club, Veteran Club Habes. I have won it many times. I wanted to establish our club, so that the name CZ would bot be forgotten and at the end of last season we had riders from several European countries come here to compete. That included a few riders from the U.S.A. - Brad Lackey, Michael Tillman and Pete Silva. It was great!
Cheers
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I also belive that Elvis is still alive and living next door to Firko?
Hmmm, (insert sound of penny dropping) I thought he looked vaguely familiar :-\.
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"....pipe dream",nice pun Mr Crocket :D
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Long live CZee pre75 ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COdewLp65vM
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Hi
who wouldn't buy a CZ twinport replica at $6000
I'll gladly pay $9000 for one, probably even more
I know what it will cost to rebuild a dead one ,
cheers
You'd be the exception.
There's always lots of talk manufacturers re-making their iconic models: Escorts, 240Zs, 1600s, 240s, RX-3s, etc etc - and people always say "yeah, I'd buy one", but if it ever came to the crunch, very, very few people will choose to buy a repro of an old car when they could buy a modern for the same amount.
For bikes/cars that you're actually going to use, I reckon the real test is to imagine that you found an original example in excellent, usable condition. How much do you offer?
If someone turned up at a vintage meet with a twin pipe CZ, I would check it out and say "cool bike", but I wouldn't offer $9k or even $6k for it - if I'm not willing to do that, then I am obviiusly not willing to pay $6k for a replica...
On the flip side, if they said "$5k and you can have it", then I would open my wallet...
It's not about what the "value", its about how important it is to me, after cutting away the emotional response to the idea of being able to buy a brand new old thing.
Not to mention the way widely available, good quality replicas devalue the originals...
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Nathan, Micheal Bamford would not take 9K from under his bed and buy a replica CZee twinport....I know the guy and it would never happen. ;D....btw.....it's his mate who was going to make the Chinka Metisses. ;) ;)...and your spot on about replica's de-valuing the real deal.
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I sold a real one for 10,500 and if they where selling at 6000 I would buy one.
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Seems to work for manx nortons & matchless g50s, few of these bikes being raced now would have been built last century.
I don't think the modern replicas which produce way more power than any of the works bikes ever did are cheap but neither are the original bikes
Certain parts if remade for CZs would have a market like rear hubs & are basically common to all models with the brake drum/sprocket mount being only change
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Hi,
the problem with 968 and 969 Twinports is they are so different, and, to all the others .different crankcases, different frames, crank mounted clutches,different gear boxes,different barrels and heads , very few Twinport bits are interchangeable with Sidepipe and Single port engines , whereas damn near everthing from 125 250 360 380 400,single ports can be used/interchanged, including wheels and frames, depending on your concept of Legality
cheers
PS ,John you find me a replica Twinport 250 0r 360 for $9000, and I'll empty the mattress real quick!
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it's his mate who was going to make the Chinka Metisses
Bugger the replica twin pipes, I'm waiting for those Metisse replicas. Any updates Michael?....Hmmm Idea!....perhaps Xiansheng Beckman can tool up to produce CZ replicas at his Guangzhou industrial complex along side the Metisse production line.
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When I think of how we were selling type 980 250s for $350 and 400s for $400 in 1975/76 I could cry that I didn't keep a few. Pretty sure when American Jawa closed their East Coast warehouse there were hundreds of 980s and a lot of old yellow tankers dumped.
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I also belive that Elvis is still alive and living next door to Firko? ;)
Your wrong.
Elvis is alive and living in Queensland cause i saw him racing his twin piper CZ
at last weekends Conondale classic. ;D
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I worked with a fellow at the Wendouree shire in Ballarat back in 1979, and his name was Elvis Presley, he even dressed everyday like Elvis.
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Hi
who wouldn't buy a CZ twinport replica at $6000
I'll gladly pay $9000 for one, probably even more
I know what it will cost to rebuild a dead one ,
cheers
You'd be the exception.
How could you possibly know that? CZ's are huge in the U.S. and even bigger in Europe. Some countries even have CZ only meetings. As has been said Jiri already does a repo and he is flat out with them. They would be popular, it's just a matter of how popular.
I think the 250 would be the go. Between Jiri already doing a 360 replica and the fact you can convert a side pipe into a twin pipe 360 via Milos Henrik, it would make more sense.
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Flat out while hand-making two per year will see him making ... a couple of dozen of them.
The bit where they're hand made by Jiri Starec also hugely adds to the value compared to a mass produced in China (my assumption on the China bit, but it is the most likely option).
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Yz 250 A replica will be next, (In Time.)
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Flat out while hand-making two per year will see him making ... a couple of dozen of them.
The bit where they're hand made by Jiri Starec also hugely adds to the value compared to a mass produced in China (my assumption on the China bit, but it is the most likely option).
China is not the most likely option. Made in Czech is the most likely. Same as all the new parts that are made now. You seem to be using your knowledge of Yamaha's in the Canberra area as a basis for your thoughts on this subject. CZ's are a different animal along with their owners. Shit look at Drakie.
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Sure.
The single post on MXTrax gives nothing to go on, so I'm going with the "most likely to be viable" option.
If the idea is being driven by an enthusiast in Czecho, then sure, they may choose to keep it in Czecho. I assume labour and real estate in Czecho are cheap, but if it was to be made in any of the 'Western Bloc' countries, it would be considerably more expensive than getting it done in China...
It's also possible that (some of) the old tooling still exists, in which case that would be a big bonus in making it viable.
In terms of people placing value on the country of origin: Regardless of what anyone says, they don't really care when they're presented with the product. Everyone prefers to buy locally, everyone prefers to buy from not-China - but if the quality is there at the right price, everyone suddenly forgets their patriotism...
It's really a question of economy of scale - if its a slight step up in what Starec has been doing for years, then that's cool, but it hardly rates a mention, IMO.
But if its a proper production run, and consequent reduction in price, then that's worth getting excited about.