OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: John Orchard on June 14, 2013, 11:58:16 am
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A subject from another thread, your views?
I too feel that tracks are a little too dangerous, yet boring. Obviously tracks being made by people that don't ride. This is why I decided to buy my own land and make a track that everyone loves.
I thought that getting on the Board at MV would allow me to have some input into various aspects of the sport but no, so I just quit the Board and l'll see if I can do something at club level or even something outside MA control?
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I too feel that tracks are a little too dangerous, yet boring.
This story relates to a modern track, not a vintage track, but it highlights what can and does happen at some tracks.
The track in question was originally laid out in consultation with a retired Pre rider, and made great use of the natural terrain available to it. It had some whoops, and it had some man made jumps and table-tops, but all done in a way that even an old Enduro rider like me could take his KTM250EXC out to play and still enjoy the day immensly.
Then the track prep got taken over by B grader (who wanted to get into A grade) and first more jumps were added.. "Not enough jumps on this bloody track!" The B grader enjoyed his jumps.
Then all the up and down ramps were drastically steepened, and the lips sharpened to a knifes edge (including a couple that were immediately on the exit of corners so there was no run up).. "How's anyone suposed to learn proper jumping techniques if there's no insentiive to time the table top properly!"
Then all the single jumps around the track were enlarged, and secondary jumps added in the landing zones (so that if you didn't make it, you endo'd). "Just jump further and you'll have no problem!"
And eventually the enjoyable, mostly natural terrain track became a stop-start, point and shoot jump fest that lost about 65% of its weekend patronage, but the track prep guy and his Supercross wannabe mates enjoyed..
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As most clubs are run by mini bike parents and even MA has agenda's to slow down MX tracks we end up with the tracks we have now. But as club days get 200 plus riders dont expect change. The free flowing open wide tracks are gone and unlikely to come back. MNSW has a speed limit on MX tracks FFS. If you like old school tracks were open class bikes could use top gear build your own.
Maybe the title should be do most modern tracks suck.
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My local motorcycle club is in the early stages of developing a new MX track (hopefully the land purchase will be finalised this month) and I can see almost the same thing happening with our track. Although the club has a lot of adult riders, most of who are enduro or casual trail riders, the track will be designed for the juniors who are more MX orientated and think that jumps are the be all and end all of a MX track.
The sad part is that over the past few year while going through all the bullshit invoved in getting development approval, negotiating the land purchase etc, we have been holding ride days on various club members land and have marked out some absolutely superb matural terrain "scramble" tracks. The track at last month ride day would have had most of this forums members drooling. About 1.5km long with a wide range of on and off cambered turn in a nice undulating paddock. The first few session cut through the grass exposing some nice moist loam. Even at the end of the day there was enough moisture in the track that no dust was being raised. I was so pissedoff that I was the only licenced official present and therefore couldn't have a ride.
Hopefully I will be able to have a bit of input, and get the track committee to make the track a bit user/vintage friendly and not be an outdoor supercross track.
CJ
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Modern MX tracks are designed for the 5% of riders who want to be Chad Reed - that is, make a living racing and never work a 9-5. And the major influence on all of this is America.
Meanwhile, the other 95% vote with their feet and make Amcross, Classic Dirt, Transmoto 12 Hour and any number of organised trail rides the huge successes that they are.
Make of that what you will...
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Jumps can be made fun and safe - take Toolleen for example. I only raced on it this year for the first time and the jumps were great. They gave you the opportunity to jump big if you wanted but were also contructed so they didnt hurt if you got it wrong.... I dont know if the track was especially prepared for Viper but I messed up plenty of times and had no issues. It can be done and we need to cater for the masses - not the vocal minority....
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Track layout should be simple but as most tracks are shit you wonder how they get it so wrong. Here is the basics principle that most don’t understand. If you want riders to be able to pass you must have gear changes between corners and room for bikes to accelerate. They should be left right combinations as badly shown here in the diagram. Its better if there is no large jumps between the corners. The outside line of one corner needs to lead onto a straight that is long enough for the extra speed to be carried so a pass can be completed.
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q747/Slakewell1/track-layout_zps9dd58a18.jpg)
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The Bendigo Motorcycle Club put on a natural terrain mx event at Heathcote on the weekend that had over 150 riders participating. The track was a typical (old style) natural terrain design with straights suitable for 2nd to 5th gear, slight off camber corners, wide enough for passing and laid out that everyone could safely ride it. I don`t believe any negative feedback was received regarding the track design, with most people keen for the next one. It proves that such a basic concept still appeals to a wide range of riders (A grade to juniors) and their abilities.
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Maybe the title should be "Should Slakewell be allowed to attempt map drawing" lol
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Take a few laps on the Boise, Idaho track to see how brilliant a track can be with only a few well located jumps. I've been reading and hearing from my American friends about this place for years and now I know what a smooth and flowing vintage motocross track can be like if the jump guys have minimal impact on the layout. Plenty of elevation change and fast and slow corners. Our mate Siege is spotted taking photos at the end of the second vid (pre 75) 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC58s8s9ClA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC58s8s9ClA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0FFgJlFNTQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0FFgJlFNTQ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q5Gy7FIfiM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q5Gy7FIfiM)
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John,
Having been involved in motocross at both club & state level for more years than I care to remember this had been a crusade of mine at one time. On more than one occasion I was greeted with a track first up in the morning that the majority of riders either didn’t have the competency or confidence to ride properly (nee safely) coming away from the event with a very poor view of the track, and sometimes injured. Generally these competitors don’t have to think twice whether they will go back to that facility for a second event. (which unfortunately reflects on the committee)
My argument for the most part is that tracks are generally built to suit a small percentage of the riding group, typically the A graders or kamikaze junior riders. Arguments that I have had from committees and track builders along the way are;
“Motocross is a man’s sport, it’s tough, its hard and if you’re not up to it then pack up, go home, sell your stuff and buy a fishing boat”
“If you make a track tough and challenging then riders will gain the necessary skills to ride it and the sport in general benefits”
“Jumps are easy to maintain and they slow the average speed of the rider down” (Hence why I believe that tracks have a disproportionate amount of jumps)
And that lovely disclaimer during riders briefing that goes something like;
“If you think todays track and conditions aren’t for you, your welcome to your money back and go home”
In motocross speak that means. “Put a teaspoon of cement in your coffee and harden the F@#k-up”
I’ve been to some track’s where I have questioned;
- The length of the main strait leading into a tight right hand corner (ok for some very early machines)
- Proximity of the tracks racing surface to manmade obstacles (I remember one rider almost being dissected at Barrabool on a grader blade one year)
- Where people say that an obstacle has caused a string of injuries and has a reputation for such, yet it is still in place.
- Racing at a given track when it’s well known that at that time of the year it will be dangerous (excessive dust or hard packed greasy surfaces in the wet)
- Why they have built a double jump when it could have been a table top jump.
I firmly believe that if you build a specific track to suit a specific demographic then you’ll be on a winner. The problem with such a track is that typically it will be very labour intensive to maintain and will require a big team to manage an event on race day. Dammed if you do dammed if you don’t.
Rod
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Modern tracks just seem to be 180 or 90 deg bends with no interesting features like fast changes of direction over a blind crest(the old Oran Pk flip flop) , or a series of corners that can be taken at increasing speeds. Most rider go around slow corners at the same pace, fast corners are what sorts out who is quick and who isn't.
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Yes modern tracks are too dangerous, most tracks nowadays are just a jump fest which greatly increases the chance of injury compared to the natural tracks we rode on in years gone by.
A track doesn't need to be full of jumps to be fun or challenging and proof of that is the popularity of Conondale, it is one of the best and most liked circuits on the modern MX Nationals tour and also in the VMX scene.
Also the natural terrain track at QMP is a big hit with the Pro riders and many practiced there the week before the Conondale round and it only has 2 or 3 small ski jumps.
There are far too many spinal and other major injuries these days and many occur on a jump gone wrong..
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Here's a link to a similar discussion back in 2009
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=9078.0
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We are very lucky to have the MX track at the Broadford State Motorcycle Complex here in Victoria which I consider to be one of the most fun tracks which has uphill and downhill sections, and tests your riding skills (or lack of...) but can be ridden safely by the fast or slow rider (try it out this Sunday at the Mitchell Rec MCC ride day!). All the jumps are safe in my opinion.
Are modern MX tracks dangerous? I don't think so. Occasionally some wanker will use a bobcat to turn one into a supercross track. But most Victorian MX tracks have to fit the description of a MX track, not a supercross track. These MA endorsed tracks have to be ticked off that they meet requirements, which wouldn't include tracks such Nunawading, Broadmeadows or Frankston.
So it's up to the rider to pick and ride the tracks that are safe for the way they ride. I know there are some I won't go near.
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so I just quit the Board and l'll see if I can do something at club level or even something outside MA control?
http://australianautosportalliance.com/category/bikes I came across this mob by mistake one day John whilst checking out the details for the winton MX track,never heard of them before :)
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Modern tracks look good to some of the late 60-early 70's tracks jumping beside trees on heavy pom iron with no suspension
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so I just quit the Board and l'll see if I can do something at club level or even something outside MA control?
http://australianautosportalliance.com/category/bikes I came across this mob by mistake one day John whilst checking out the details for the winton MX track,never heard of them before :)
They're legit. Took huge chunks out of CAMS' market share, and forced CAMS to lift their game (articulately relating to the way they treat competitors).
No experience with their bike stuff, but definitely worth a look if you're disgruntled with MA.
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Yes the tracks a generally too dangerous because of there poor design and layout, the facts are it was a rare occurrence to have any rider end up in a wheel chair until recently, if there is one measure to use for me it's that the jumpfests they call modern tracks now are ridiculous after watching the last round of the MX Nats at Conondale which was a good layout and design,the riders ability to jump exceeded there ability to race and select quality lines unfortunately it's too bad really.
#8
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Let's face it guys, motocross began with a few guys from a m/c club grabbing a few stakes and some flags and strolling around a paddock to mark out a few 'features' like a climb up that hill and then down into that gully and then flat out down the back into a big sweeper in front of the missus parked in the shade of that tree...we'll add a creek over the back and run through that sand where pop digs up his stuff when we're making concrete.......etc...
It wasn't until our sport became really popular that we had to build permanant circuits and thats when the game changed and we started to man make features which grew bigger and steeper and sharper etc....the best example is whoops,m these used to be made as the day worn on and the track became more dug up and rutted. Now some dick has them grafted by a backhoe...to test endurance and stamina FFS!
OUR ARM OF THE SPORT NEEDS TO GET BACK TO WHAT WE USED TO BE.
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Let's face it guys, motocross began with a few guys from a m/c club grabbing a few stakes and some flags and strolling around a paddock to mark out a few 'features' like a climb up that hill and then down into that gully and then flat out down the back into a big sweeper in front of the missus parked in the shade of that tree...we'll add a creek over the back and run through that sand where pop digs up his stuff when we're making concrete.......etc...
It wasn't until our sport became really popular that we had to build permanant circuits and thats when the game changed and we started to man make features which grew bigger and steeper and sharper etc....the best example is whoops,m these used to be made as the day worn on and the track became more dug up and rutted. Now some dick has them grafted by a backhoe...to test endurance and stamina FFS!
OUR ARM OF THE SPORT NEEDS TO GET BACK TO WHAT WE USED TO BE.
;) well said , I rode the canberra track a few weeks back , jumps more jumps and more jumps ??? couldnt get out of third gear :D never seen a track with so many jumps . as you said EML need to go back to grass roots ;) where it all started , go back to move forward
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Tracks should be subject to a semi risk assessment process to check the "what if" scenarios and make sure that risks to riders are acceptable within a good range.
its amazing how often a serious risk is in plain view and everyone is immune to it by a simple mind rationalisation process
I know this sounds a bit Nannyish, but people are being seriously hurt and the fun goes right out of life if its you or someone you know etc
its especially bad if the circumstances of the incident (never an accident, there is always a known cause and an effect) are found to have been preventable or the potential consequences minimised if some thought had been put into it.
im too old for mx so I doesn't really affect me but I find it distressing to read about people in their prime (that's us :D) being injured doing stuff they probably shouldn't be doing... by being exposed to extreme situations designed for the top 10%.
it was interesting to read J Orchards comments as well as the junior crusty reeds which I guess will be the driving force in this saga.
but if clubs work to find and promote natural terrain tracks the numbers of riders should increase which should (could?) push further toward freeflowing less technical tracks.
it wont be easy but a reduction in serious life ending injuries must be on MA's radar if not the general club managers (bit of a rant I guess...)
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Now some dick has them grafted by a backhoe...to test endurance and stamina FFS!
40 minutes moto's were a test of endurance and stamina back in the day..now its speed and skill while hanging onto a 450's power which can be untapped.
SPEED=Chad Reed on a 450cc, no one can ever use the whole power of a 450...............bring on a 360 ;D
SKILL = Todd Waters mentioned on Manjimup track last Sunday-sand,hard pack, fast straights, jumps, cornering and much more.
Yes its changed and thank goodness we have Vintage MotoX and natural terrain 8)
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so I just quit the Board and l'll see if I can do something at club level or even something outside MA control?
http://australianautosportalliance.com/category/bikes I came across this mob by mistake one day John whilst checking out the details for the winton MX track,never heard of them before :)
Yeh AASA, they run events at Winton, Wakefield Park & Calder, generally roadracing though. The Eastern states roadracing Championship 'Formula Extreme' (televised on Speedweek on SBS television) is governed by the AASA.
I'm just waiting for the dust to settle over the Bob/Rodney Jane control of Calder Park to see if a mx event can be run there.
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Its not only the tracks, the bikes make huge horsepower, a mate was at Conondale for the MX Nationals last week and was talking to Rob Tywerould ( KTM head mechanic) and they can pull up to 70 hp out of there 450's, all with a tweak of a computer. Sure they have better suspension and brakes but they still run the same size tyres.....actually I think they ran 5.10 tyres on the 500's in the 80's. Look at Caroili, wins the world title on a 350.
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As a Committee Member for 13yrs at Blue Rock MCC, yes, our track is not for the faint hearted, but when we have to renew our track licence, as Steve Davis outlines, we have to have a track inspection by MV officials for our accreditation and although it may not suit the Vintage style of racing, our track has to meet all standards of racing.
Mrs Maico #54
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Was talking to Rob Tywerould ( KTM head mechanic) and they can pull up to 70 hp out of there 450's, all with a tweak of a computer
70 HP out of 450cc, how with just a tweak of the ECU? Having spent countless hours in and around dyno's (chassis & engine) on $100k plus race engines I'd really like to know how KTM do that without intake mods, compression and exhaust changes. If you could get that HP out of a 450 single I doubt it would last a full moto. I know the super moto guys get that sort of HP out of the current 450 mx'rs but there punched out to 500cc and live on stable pure race fuels.
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Mrs Maico54 makes a good point, all tracks have to pass MA scrutinee, however it lands in the laps of those scrutineers to make a track "safe" Many of those same people have possibly never seen a pre 75 (or older) bike , let alone ridden one in anger, and therefore have no idea what is expected. Many of these same folk may never have been to a scramble back in the day and only have 'modern motocross' tracks to compare to. It's all in the perception of what a 'motocross' is.
Maybe we need to become a "hare scamble" club and race across country in point to point races again :D :D :D
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Mrs Maico54 makes a good point, all tracks have to pass MA scrutinee, however it lands in the laps of those scrutineers to make a track "safe" Many of those same people have possibly never seen a pre 75 (or older) bike , let alone ridden one in anger, and therefore have no idea what is expected. Many of these same folk may never have been to a scramble back in the day and only have 'modern motocross' tracks to compare to. It's all in the perception of what a 'motocross' is.
Maybe we need to become a "hare scamble" club and race across country in point to point races again :D :D :D
Vaughn, edit..The venue inspection ruling/book is not discipline specific.The guideline does not differentuate between classic and modern mx tracks.
Its up to the venue/landowner to run what discipline he or she wish's.
Two of venue inspectors here in WA are both pre75 associates.
cheers A
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Well, there you go Ali, I have no idea who is dfoing what here...best I find out.
It b rings me back to my own track back on the farm at Taupiri (google that you Aussies) I had a part of the circuit that went up and over an 'arm' of earth that ran down from the surrounding hills. It made a perfct little hill that my MX250 could climb up and I could bounce off the top lip and jump almost to the other side before leaping back down onto the flat paddock below. AFter so many laps I actually got quicker on the approach and then once in a while I could get enogh speed to claer the top and land going down the other side. Holey shit, I thought, that was scarey...and fun. I had no thought of if it was dangerous or what-ever, it was just good fun. But , by deffinition these days, it was a table top, way back in 1975 +/-. The thing is (was) it was NATURAL, no bobcats or bulldozers, just a natural part of my track that became a feature that I loved to ride. By its very nature it was safe...safe enough for a poorly machined c grader to tackle.
We need more of that.
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Mrs Maico54 makes a good point, all tracks have to pass MA scrutinee, however it lands in the laps of those scrutineers to make a track "safe" Many of those same people have possibly never seen a pre 75 (or older) bike , let alone ridden one in anger, and therefore have no idea what is expected. Many of these same folk may never have been to a scramble back in the day and only have 'modern motocross' tracks to compare to. It's all in the perception of what a 'motocross' is.
Maybe we need to become a "hare scamble" club and race across country in point to point races again :D :D :D
The track at Frankston where our friend was riding has nothing to do with the MA.
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All MX tracks are danerous, weren't you listening at your last riders briefing?
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All MX tracks are danerous, weren't you listening at your last riders briefing?
Yes your bike can be broken,smashed or busted up bad ;)
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Im the first to put the bike back on the trailer if i feel im not upto the task of riding the track in my comfort zone. The cost ive forked out to get on there in the first place is going to be a minor loss compared to braining myself in a big way. Its hard when I know i never going to get the seat time to constantly ride them tracks to improve my skills on them :-[
By the feed back im hearing from the club level mxers, is that you need to be pretty well be on your game to consistantly lap around there and there consistatly nearly getting jumped on by the fast boys if they dont jump the jumps :-\
I think broadford, Traralgon and Monza park are good examples of mx tracks for the not so dare develish 8) well monza has a few challenges but not ridiculous steep upramps
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Im the first to put the bike back on the trailer if i feel im not upto the task of riding the track in my comfort zone. The cost ive forked out to get on there in the first place is going to be a minor loss compared to braining myself in a big way. Its hard when I know i never going to get the seat time to constantly ride them tracks to improve my skills on them :-[
By the feed back im hearing from the club level mxers, is that you need to be pretty well be on your game to consistantly lap around there and there consistatly nearly getting jumped on by the fast boys if they dont jump the jumps :-\
I think broadford, Traralgon and Monza park are good examples of mx tracks for the not so dare develish 8) well monza has a few challenges but not ridiculous steep upramps
Thats it Jimmy. I've been down to Frankston a few times this year but elected not to even unload the bike.I think the last time when I decided to visit Mum instead was the day of a few nasty accidents one of which was the guy that got paralysed.
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I haven't seen MX tracks in other States and also haven't been to many in Queensland recently (apart from Conondale, Hervey Bay, Harrisville and QMP), but if tracks comply properly with the MA Track Standards they shouldn't be dangerous. Multiple jumps (eg double jumps etc) are banned for MX tracks. So if they are there they shouldn't be. Complain (in writing to your SCB)calmly approach the CofC at the meeting if you see something wrong.
We have gone through this before. In the 80s when Supercross became very popular, clubs and promoters started putting SX stuff in MX tracks. There was a double jump in the main straight at Tivoli in 1981 and a quad jump in another section. Rider numbers in MX dropped drastically in the late 80s. It wasn't until the tracks were changed that they came back. Riders just voted with their feet. Don't do that, very calmly give your opinion. Anyone who doesn't want to ride MX tracks with SX stuff in them is not a whimp. If you want to ride SX you can, but you shouldn't have to put up with it at MX.
The problem is the influence of SX and also Freestyle. Also all tracks can't be Natural Terrain. True Natural Terrain is a track marked out in a paddock and used once. If you use the same track again after fixing it up it really is no longer Natural Terrain.
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I thought the Frankston Track was closed down a couple of years Ago
by the local Council because there were Too many Injuries on it and
they could not get any Insurance on the Track...
The Stig..
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Re: Are modern mx tracks too dangerous?
Throttle goes both ways ;)
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Yes it is up to the rider to control how fast he or she goes, but racing of any description is about trying to win so if the other guy is prepared to stick his neck out you either have to do the same or finish second. Track standards are there to limit the risks (limit not eliminate). So if the tracks standards are being ignored something should be done about it. Don't just stop racing at these tracks, be prepared to say something. Learn from the past. Saying it on a forum may not get back to the people who can change things. I don't live in the state that appears to have a problem, if I did I would say something.
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For many years now I have been involved in the trials & tribulations of track inspections/licencing by MV, who are "Guided" by MA's track guidelines & the BIGGEST hinderence is the "Average speed" of the track. And I quote;
Speed
The track must not contain any high-speed sections (i.e. where speeds exceed 100kph).
Average Speed: The maximum average speed for a lap of the track is to be no greater than
55kph.
The formula to work out the average track speed is:
Average Speed (kph) = Distance (metres) x 3.6 over LapTime (secs)
And here's the biggy;
Note that the lap time used is to be one achieved by an experienced “Pro” grade rider.
If you have to design it to slow down a Pro Rider to that speed the rest of us are lucky to average about 45KPH
Hence lots of jumps (Jumpfest), tight corners (& lots of them) (Quote; Can't get out of 3rd gear), the sweeping under the carpet of the introduction of stutters, sorry whoops (Yeah right). Jumps slow most riders down because it's a simple fact you can't accellerate in mid air. If you want a long fast straight you then have to strangle the rest of the track. Italso is another reason why a lot of tracks become one line because there is no opportubity to pass.
I love jumps, or did, & they don't worry me but I agree that an average rider, like myself, can get better results if they are proficient at jumps. Case in point is Joel Milesevic Currently competing in Europe) who as a Junior was better than average in his early days but would often win because he could clear 99% of all jumps in OZ when he was on a 65cc. He has gone onto be a great rider but it was his jumping ability earlier on that helped his results.
What gets me is enduro loops can have section where they are tapped in top with trees & other life threatening obstacles wizzing past only metres away. We now have to redesign/modify our track (ONCE AGAIN) to meet the new 7 metre width rule. Easy for “Flat tracks” you can just kick the tyres out half a metre either side, a little harder for the jumps though, but very expensive for the likes of Monza, Blue Rock, etc which are carved into hillsides. At a cost of $10-$20K which will take 4-6 years to recoup & by then MA will have changed the "Guidelines" again costing us more money.
My point in all of this is don’t blame the club/committee as they are only conforming to the rules so they can be licenced. What you end up getting is an A grade Junior track.
This is why clubs are forming splinter clubs, let’s say the Ballarat MotoX club, who then hires the track, read Monza, for whatever events it wants to run and only licences the track for that event. The rest of the time it is not. Yes this means some mods before & after which we couldn’t do because of our terrain but clubs on near flat land could have 2 tracks within one and section off as required.
It is a fact of life that today’s tracks will not suit most VMX riders, so yes ride to the conditions, don’t ride and spectate, only ride natural terrain tracks. OR complain to the governing bodies who control our sport (On our behalf I might add) but not at the clubs, they are hamstrung. (Not that I’m saying youse did)
The other thing to keep in mind is we will get complaint before the day has started at a Western because a track that suit one class will never suit another. AND while I’m on regions/opens/titles, this trend of grooming tracks half way through the meet because it has cut up rough is Bullsh*t. Unless it’s dangerous then harden up or go home. I remember riding a Vic title at Monza in 79 and the track had been prepped and it was dusty & full of whoops (Bike made not manmade) & I thought it was great because we knew no better. We didn’t have the machinery or the money to groom tracks like we do today. Christ today’s bikes with their suspension, brakes etc. make our day bikes look like motorised pushbikes yet they complain as soon as one or 2 braking bumps appear.
Sorry, waffle waffle, blah blah.
Don’t know how to fix it but DON’T blame the clubs. Blame MA/MV first then the whinging minority that want tracks change to suit little Johnny or Mr. Midlife crisis with his 450 weapon (That he can’t ride)
IMO
Perko
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For many years now I have been involved in the trials & tribulations of track inspections/licencing by MV, who are "Guided" by MA's track guidelines & the BIGGEST hinderence is the "Average speed" of the track. And I quote;
Speed
The track must not contain any high-speed sections (i.e. where speeds exceed 100kph).
Average Speed: The maximum average speed for a lap of the track is to be no greater than
55kph.
The formula to work out the average track speed is:
Average Speed (kph) = Distance (metres) x 3.6 over LapTime (secs)
And here's the biggy;
Note that the lap time used is to be one achieved by an experienced “Pro” grade rider.
If you have to design it to slow down a Pro Rider to that speed the rest of us are lucky to average about 45KPH
Hence lots of jumps (Jumpfest), tight corners (& lots of them) (Quote; Can't get out of 3rd gear), the sweeping under the carpet of the introduction of stutters, sorry whoops (Yeah right). Jumps slow most riders down because it's a simple fact you can't accellerate in mid air. If you want a long fast straight you then have to strangle the rest of the track. Italso is another reason why a lot of tracks become one line because there is no opportubity to pass.
I love jumps, or did, & they don't worry me but I agree that an average rider, like myself, can get better results if they are proficient at jumps. Case in point is Joel Milesevic Currently competing in Europe) who as a Junior was better than average in his early days but would often win because he could clear 99% of all jumps in OZ when he was on a 65cc. He has gone onto be a great rider but it was his jumping ability earlier on that helped his results.
What gets me is enduro loops can have section where they are tapped in top with trees & other life threatening obstacles wizzing past only metres away. We now have to redesign/modify our track (ONCE AGAIN) to meet the new 7 metre width rule. Easy for “Flat tracks” you can just kick the tyres out half a metre either side, a little harder for the jumps though, but very expensive for the likes of Monza, Blue Rock, etc which are carved into hillsides. At a cost of $10-$20K which will take 4-6 years to recoup & by then MA will have changed the "Guidelines" again costing us more money.
My point in all of this is don’t blame the club/committee as they are only conforming to the rules so they can be licenced. What you end up getting is an A grade Junior track.
This is why clubs are forming splinter clubs, let’s say the Ballarat MotoX club, who then hires the track, read Monza, for whatever events it wants to run and only licences the track for that event. The rest of the time it is not. Yes this means some mods before & after which we couldn’t do because of our terrain but clubs on near flat land could have 2 tracks within one and section off as required.
It is a fact of life that today’s tracks will not suit most VMX riders, so yes ride to the conditions, don’t ride and spectate, only ride natural terrain tracks. OR complain to the governing bodies who control our sport (On our behalf I might add) but not at the clubs, they are hamstrung. (Not that I’m saying youse did)
The other thing to keep in mind is we will get complaint before the day has started at a Western because a track that suit one class will never suit another. AND while I’m on regions/opens/titles, this trend of grooming tracks half way through the meet because it has cut up rough is Bullsh*t. Unless it’s dangerous then harden up or go home. I remember riding a Vic title at Monza in 79 and the track had been prepped and it was dusty & full of whoops (Bike made not manmade) & I thought it was great because we knew no better. We didn’t have the machinery or the money to groom tracks like we do today. Christ today’s bikes with their suspension, brakes etc. make our day bikes look like motorised pushbikes yet they complain as soon as one or 2 braking bumps appear.
Sorry, waffle waffle, blah blah.
Don’t know how to fix it but DON’T blame the clubs. Blame MA/MV first then the whinging minority that want tracks change to suit little Johnny or Mr. Midlife crisis with his 450 weapon (That he can’t ride)
IMO
Perko
Last year I watched Henry Latham win several races at Vipers Monza round, with most riders a fair distance behind in some cases, on most laps I noticed that he chose to roll the back step up an not attempt to clear it. Then proceeded to get back on the gas with his usual gusto and continue flying around most sections, riding smooth can beat riding fast...... Bill is also correct, that right grip goes both directions...it's your choice where you position it!! ;)
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I agree with you guys about go as fast, and jump, as you see fit. Getting rid of doubles or triples that you'd have to jump to win, or stop someone else jumping on you as you take them one-at-a-time, is good. I don't think any old-school rider is concerned about how rough the track gets.
I think my beef is with MA or state controlling bodies, sure they are trying to make the sport safer and also wanting to appear to be pro-active in the eyes of all. But this crap that Monza & Tooleen are having over minimum (7 metres) width is crazy! Shit the table-tops at Broadford are only 4 metres wide!!!!
I have been critisized about speaking-up because I was an MV Board member, so I have since quit the Board because I couldn't make change while being on the board and I was unable to speak-up.
I am angry with certain aspects of MA & MV (I only know of Victoria because I live here), they are steered by non competitors, they think they are trying to do the right thing but they have no idea!
On the weekend I went to Winton MX track (tight track, no doubles) for a practise, it is run by guys that ride and they are not restricted by MA/MV, they run under AASA controlling body, just as the Formula Extreme Roadrace Championship. They say their costs are much lower than MA/MV and are not restricted with stupid rules.
The Winton guys said that they'd love to run some vintage events, I think we should get on-board, maybe this will make MA/MV snap in line once they start losing riders & events to AASA. Apparently Calder Park is run under AASA, they run the Extreme Enduro out there, I will try to see if we can run an MX or two out there.
I wonder if clubs really need to be affiliated with MA/MV these days? It doesn't worry Winton. What if Ballarat ran AASA events at Monza Park? They'd still have insurance (and not get ripped-off by the MA owned insurance company).
Sorry I got a little off-track with my MV bashing......
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Last year I watched Henry Latham win several races at Vipers Monza round, with most riders a fair distance behind in some cases, on most laps I noticed that he chose to roll the back step up an not attempt to clear it.
I gave this advice to Chris Cormack a few years back, in our 125 race, on how to attack Monza if you don't like jumps. Hit the upramp like you are going to clear then scrub off speed & accelerate. Can backfire if someone's up your clacker though. He was clearing the step up as it was one of the easiest back then. Harder now.
My advice to anyone who complained about Monza's jumps was "Show me in the rule book where it says you HAVE TO clear the jumps?" No different for me & off camber corners (Any corners matter of fact). Ban them I say, suits me.
John, would like to talk further about your AASA idea at a later date.
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Ive had a little bit to do with Australian Auto Sport Alliance and they are easy to deal with and it all seems to work fine. Be good to get them involved Johnny O
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Are modern tracks too dangerous?
As the old saying goes "Play with the cat and put up with the sratches."
I have found out recently that even Dirt Track can be dangerous if you go too hard, but its up to you to look after yourself.
Unfortunately in the modern world there are sooks and softcocks everywhere that expect everything to be modified to suit them or their crew and if something goes wrong tis everyone elses fault. >:( >:(
Faaaaark they shit me :P
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I think it's all arse about. It's not the speed so much but the obstacles that create more injuries. If you had a fast flowing natural terrain track with room to pass, I bet there would be less injuries than a modern style track. Less desperate overtaking moves too.
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I think it's all arse about. It's not the speed so much but the obstacles that create more injuries. If you had a fast flowing natural terrain track with room to pass, I bet there would be less injuries than a modern style track. Less desperate overtaking moves too.
Exactly right!
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You only have to spend some time at QMP and regularly see ambulance cases in the middle of the whoop section and right at the big tabletops..
Story has it that some guy on a 85 CR500 had a big getoff on one of the tabletops and busted a collarbone and bruised his pride.. ;D
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Is that the same bloke that got his arse whipped by a girl recently? ;D
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'84.... :'(
Piss of crock a shit aka splat boy
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Is that the same bloke that got his arse whipped by a girl recently? ;D
Haha.. Ouch!
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I think it's all arse about. It's not the speed so much but the obstacles that create more injuries. If you had a fast flowing natural terrain track with room to pass, I bet there would be less injuries than a modern style track. Less desperate overtaking moves too.
In a nutshell.
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I think it's all arse about. It's not the speed so much but the obstacles that create more injuries. If you had a fast flowing natural terrain track with room to pass, I bet there would be less injuries than a modern style track. Less desperate overtaking moves too.
Totally agree
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Summarising for Johnny O.. when do we start???
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It would be great to live in an ideal world, one where everything suits our particular needs, but as we all know, that just isn't possible as we all have differing likes and dislikes, on and off a dirtbike!
There has been many very good points made here already. IE; the throttle goes both ways (reminds me of the modern Honda sticker, STUPID HURTS) and just because a jump has been put in a place you don't like doesn't mean you have to launch yourself off of it. "if I don't like the look of a track, I pack up and go home.... to name a few.
Personally, there was a time when I used to love big jumps on my then modern '84 CR250. I left the sport for a few years (like alot of us) then took up enduro after getting sick of being injured playing footy. But I missed motocross and banging bars with few of your mates.
So I decided on a CR250M as my ride for VMX. I thought VMX would be more laid back and without too many big jumps. Most of all I thought there would be less politics and cheaper racing. How wrong can a man be?
MA and MV have their grubby paws in everything we do, (apart from trail riding where the cops and wildlife types take over to make sure we don't have any single track through the spotted frill necked frogs backyard), and make what is a legitimate family past time so bloody expensive. We don't need practice on big double jumps, whoops and other modern obstacles. We don't plan on being world champions. Yet we have to pay not only financially but also with track designs for the wannabes.....
I say it's time to give MA and other governing bodies the boot from having a monopoly on controlling our sport. VMXer's in general are not wanna be pros. Most of us realised long ago that was never going to happen. Now we just want somewhere to ride our old bikes with a few others and have some fun in a mostly safe environment. We all know that any motor sport is dangerous and don't need to be told at every rider briefing.
If AASA are in a position to help us and our particular brand of motorcycle racing with safer tracks and less cost, bring it on I say!
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If you ever get the chance to attend the A4DE you will change your mind on how dangerous mx tracks are.
Just insane speeds through the untamed environment of the Australian Bush :P
These riders do not have the word fear in there dictionary's.
cheers
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Speed
The track must not contain any high-speed sections (i.e. where speeds exceed 100kph).
Average Speed: The maximum average speed for a lap of the track is to be no greater than
55kph.
The formula to work out the average track speed is:
Average Speed (kph) = Distance (metres) x 3.6 over LapTime (secs)
And here's the biggy;
Note that the lap time used is to be one achieved by an experienced “Pro” grade rider.
Ok if there are people out there using the average speed as a reason for putting in more jumps (obstacles) they are wrong. That average speed comes from the FIM Motocross track standards and I don't think you would call the World MX GP tracks slow and jump fests. Also speed does not cause as many injuries as what jumps and other obstacles do. If you compared Supercross injuries to Motocross injuries on a meeting average, there would be a higher percentage in Supercross and Stadium Motocross.
As for the 7 metre minimum width for Tracks with over 31 start gates, Queensland have had that for at least 5 years. If Broadford's tabletops are only 4 metres wide, put a complaint in in writing to M/C Vic. They own Broadford so they should make sure it complies.
As I have said before if you don't like the way tracks have become, put in a formal complaint to your SCB.
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If you ever get the chance to attend the A4DE you will change your mind on how dangerous mx tracks are.
Just insane speeds through the untamed environment of the Australian Bush :P
These riders do not have the word fear in there dictionary's.
cheers
Too right! I've had many an encounter with runaway trees and rocks. BUT, there are no insane man made obstacles to deal with either Alison. Take your Dandaloo track for example... Its very fast with some very well thought out jumps that roll with the lay of the land and don't catapult man and machine into space (or the face of another jump) unless the brain isn't engaged with the throttle controller!