OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Vintage Track => Topic started by: oldyzman on April 09, 2013, 10:39:53 pm
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IS it the XR750 or that 2 stroke Yamaha that Kenny Roberts rode once. I like them both.
Brett
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all of them because the are bikes and not a horse
astro
champions
trackmaster
starracer
ect ect
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This is OZ you blokes. Enough talk about Yank bikes that were never ridden here. ;D ;)
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Yeah enough Seppo talk eh, now what about the Hagon Bully's that Fraze rode Steve ?, they had an impressive list of wins.
Foss
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The XR750 Harley is the Manx Norton* of flat track. I've never been a Harley guy but once you've seen and heard a field of XR Harleys on full song it'll never leave you. I might be a bit selfish here because I've got one but I also think that the XS650 based OW72 Yamaha needs to be up there as it was good enough to (briefly) knock the Harley off its perch. King Kenny on board didn't hurt of course.
(* or 2 valve Jawa for you Steve ;))
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steve look at the title FLATTRACK is used so its seppo stuff
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Yeah, Jim, but most of the people I talk to, mostly non DT folk and some of the more enlightened even, like our local copper, an MX Mum,refer to Dirt Track as, you guessed it , Flat Track, annoys me immensely.
Foss
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Flat Track, Dirt track... Shouldn't we be talking about Short Circuit? ;D
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Flat Track, Dirt track... Shouldn't we be talking about Short Circuit? ;D
Only if you are as old as me and a few others, Graeme ;D
Foss
And, if you're older than that, Miniature TT
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While we're about it, what about Herb's Beezer and Eso Hagons ? a shitload of wins on the trot ;D
Foss
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(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m605/Husky500evo/WeslakeBlackErnarhs_zps789ed718.jpg)
Can anyone tell me some history on this bike ? I stumbled across some pictures of it when I googled the name of legendary German engine tuner , Otto Lantenhammer. It is a custom made Weslake V twin, apparently nicknamed the "Black Erna", built in 1983 for a customer in Australia. Was it ever unleashed on the track?
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(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m605/Husky500evo/WeslakeBlackErna_zps5b070c07.jpg)
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Otto Lantenhammer
he is a long track equivalent to black cavier he gets hp out of motors and lots of them
jim
Flat Track, Dirt track... Shouldn't we be talking about Short Circuit?
Only if you are as old as me and a few others, Graeme
Foss
And, if you're older than that, Miniature TT
Posted on: Today at 07:06:47 AM Posted by: Graeme M
i am younger than you bro and i know about short circuit still called that in 1977 as thats whats on dads veterans trophy he won on you elstar jap at nepean
also on mine for 1973 and 1974 2nd place
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If we are comparing bikes to a famous racehorse, with regard to value or important racing victories, then Ivan Mauger's gold plated 2 valve Jawa would have to be a contender.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m605/Husky500evo/IvanMaugersGold2valve_zps452ba488.jpg)
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This is OZ you blokes. Enough talk about Yank bikes that were never ridden here.
Who gives a shit whether they were ridden here or not? You blokes want it all..... we've got page after page of good Aussie dirt track stuff on here so why be so mealy mouth about the occasional bit of Flattrack? Just because you blokes aren't into the bikes doesn't mean we can't have them on here and whether you like them or not, there are a lot of people who do like them. For fluck sake I've got an interest in anything (and I mean everything) that races on the dirt...motocross, dirt track, speedway trials, enduros and yes.....Flat track so why not open up your interest span, you might just find something that excites you. However, if that's not possible you don't have to open the page. Leave it to those that are interested.
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Faaaaark, wrong side of the bed.
It was a joke and aimed at Jimbo.
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Faaaaark, wrong side of the bed.
It was a joke and aimed at Jimbo
Well that's not how it looked to us outside of the in joke Steve. You have voiced that sentiment before so it was natural to think that you mean't what you wrote. All good ;)
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That's what this meant ;) ;D but fair enough, apologies to Brett who actually started the topic.
I've never said I don't like the Flattrackers, quite the opposite, what I did say was that the bikes that were the Gun thing of our early Short Circuit history like Duplex Beeza's were being forgotten.
Anyway we all have our passions, mine is Short Circuit history.
All good.
I would suggest the big XR Harleys from the 70's are the Black Cavier of Flattrackers.
P.S. There is a difference between voicing a sentiment and jumping down someone's neck.
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Not sure if it is from this bike , but I know a bloke that has a very similar 850 engine fitted in a Wasp . Sounds very sharp and snappy .
Engine number * NW 0126* . Maybe that helps ?
are you sure its a V twin walter? the 850's i thought were parallel twins.
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After looking at Ivan Mauger's gold plated bike you know what you can do with ya flat trackers. ;D
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Greame, Sincere question, Does "short circuit" cover both?
Brett
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G'day Brett and sorry for the topic hijack, it went in a direction I didn't expect.
As I've been told, " Short Circuit " came about because there was a lack of suitable road racing tracks back in the day which is why the early tracks were quite long compared with todays tracks.
DT is our modern day name and Flattrack is basically the US equivelant.
So in answere to your question, in Australia, DT, Flattrack & Short Circuit all fall under the same explanation.
Then there's, Longtrack, Shorttrack & even Track racing.
If you're confused then so am I sometimes.
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I probably should apologise for wading into this thread, without properly reading the heading and the first few posts. The pictures I posted were of dirt track and speedway bikes and I should have put up a pic of King Kenny Roberts TZ750 flattracker, which I regard as the T-Rex of flat track.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m605/Husky500evo/KennyRobertsTZflattracker_zps17a5d525.jpg)
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We all know of the immaculate Black Betty.
Introducing, Black Cavier.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2d1l37q.jpg)
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fug that,4 cylinders,i'll take the goldie anyday,(prolly have to fight pancho off with a big stick but ;D) :P
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Hey Slides, back in the olden days when I first started short circuit racing the most desirable machinery out there was the 'Goldie'!
Even though the occasional J.A.P. would take home the 'aces invitation' prize or some such, the facination of the Goldie and the 'Tweety bird' note on (back off) had us in awe.
And me sitting on the sprung seat of a beat up old rigid Ajay.
cheers pancho.
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Here's the twin brother to my new Shell 750 Yamaha. An identical bike to these ridden by Kenny Roberts was the bike that ended years of Harley domination in 1973/4. The Yamaha light shone briefly but to do it with what was essentially a tricked up streetbike engine that was 10hp down on the factory Harleys was an amazing achieviment so I think it is the Black Caviar of flat track. I can't wait for mine to get here.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/12Dec07ShellYamaha-1-LS_zpse22438b6.jpg)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/kennybike_zps5680ae2a.jpg)
The actual Kenny Roberts bike in street trim in the UK ...Sacreleige!
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/Thuett_zps05f4415c.jpg)
My Shell 750 in forground
P.S. There is a difference between voicing a sentiment and jumping down someone's neck.
fair enough, I didn't mean it to sound cranky Steve, I wasn't, I just misunderstood your post. Apologies.
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All good Firko, no offence meant or taken, between us hopefully we can make a difference.
In reply to another Flattracker thread, I'd have no drama's with the Flattrackers being included in the Slider class if it help's achieve a full grid. I'm sure I've even suggested that prospect somewhere else, they are basically another breed of Slider.
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(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m605/Husky500evo/Rotaxflattracker_zps8203de85.jpg)
Forgive my ignorance on the subject of US flat track, but am I correct in saying that whenever a different make of bike began dominating the Harleys , the rules were changed to either ban them (as in the case of the Roberts TZ) or move them to another class (as with the Rotax powered bikes) ? I think that the Rotax powered flattracker in this pic, shown as an example, was John Kocinski's race bike.
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Now sounds like the Yanks attitude to a sport they dominate, move the goal posts.
America's Cup ring a bell?
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Forgive my ignorance on the subject of US flat track, but am I correct in saying that whenever a different make of bike began dominating the Harleys , the rules were changed to either ban them (as in the case of the Roberts TZ) or move them to another class (as with the Rotax powered bikes) ? I think that the Rotax powered flattracker in this pic, shown as an example, was John Kocinski's race bike.
Mark, the AMA have been biased towards Harley's domination dirt track since day one. When Dick Mann was beating the Harleys with his G50 Matchless back in the sixties they effectively banned the Matchless by introducing a rule that demanded the engine be production based, conveniently overlooking that the KR Harley engine shared zero parts with its production brother. It was the same when two strokes looked like they might get an edge on the Harley and the movable goal posts continue until today. All that aside however, the XR Harley is an exceptional race bike that continues to dominate, despite the occasional applecart upset from Yamaha, Honda and in recent years Ducati.
The Wood Rotax shown is indeed John Kosinski's race ride. It's an exceptionally trick bike but still legal for the vintage class it runs in.
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little john from little rock wins by a country mile evey time he races
jim
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Firko was it true that in early days,
and up to the 60s or thereabouts the controlling body for track racing in U.S. was a wing of the H.D. factory?
pancho.
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Firko was it true that in early days,
and up to the 60s or thereabouts the controlling body for track racing in U.S. was a wing of the H.D. factory?
I'm not totally sure of the details but I believe that Harley Davidson traditionally had somebody on the board of the AMA for decades. There's a great article about it somewhere on the 'net, if I find it I'll post it up.
Heres an article that mention the attempts to keep Harley at the top of AMA racing..........
Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....
Genuine plunger-framed M30 Manx models were raced at Daytona beach in the late 40's and early 50's complete with their magnesium engines, brakes and even DOHC valve gear. They were the same Manx bikes as raced in England with the exception of having to have 7.5:1 compression and kick-start mechanisms added to meet American Motorcycling Association rules. Steve Lancefield and then Francis Beart both went to Daytona with Manx bikes, piloted by various American riders the most famous probably being Dick Klamfoth who won the Daytona 200 more than once on a Manx in this era.
The American motorcycle manufacturers and the Triumph motorcycle company were of course not happy about Norton's Daytona performances. Harley Davidson and Indian along with BSA Chief Walt Brown and Rod Coates, the top Triumph man in the eastern United States was in charge of their racing program and also was a member of the AMA rules committee tirelessly lobbied for rule changes that would favor their marques.
This lobbying and politics kept the featherbed manx and other British OHC racing bikes out of AMA competition thru the early sixties, by which time they were just about obsolete anyway.
Because the Norton featherbed 88 was a production bike, the AMA could not keep it out of competition, and the works racing department began making special "Daytona 88" racers to compete at the Daytona 200 starting in 1953 when two were sent over and they finished with very high placings.
Throughout the fifties these Daytona twins evolved into what was basically a Manx Chassis with a model 88 engine in it. The engines had some tuning which resulted in the "Daytona" camshaft profile, which was incorporated into the production twins in the late fifties. Also the bikes were fitted with a bit higher compression and twin Amal GP carbs. If you run the serial numbers of one of these bikes through the factory records kept in England by the NOC, it will come back as a Norton 88 with the "Daytona 88" option.
The latest wideline Daytona 88 bike I have heard of and know of, is a 1959 model. When the slimline featherbed was introduced for 1960 AMA rules would insist that it would be used in competition.
Doug Hele and the racing department were heavily into developing the Dominator twins in the late 1950's to increase the performance of the road bikes vs. BSA and Triumph offereings, and for use in racing, first in production racing, then looking at it as a good replacement for the heavier, complicated and expensive to produce Manx. Works prepared model 88s began winning production races in 1960 and in 1961 everyone knows that the Domiracer appeared at the Isle of Man and did very well.
Heads with polished ports and big valves, along with twin-carbs and other production racing parts were available from Nortons for the Dominator twins from 1958 onwards. From 1961 onwards performance "SportsSpecials" were sold as complete bikes on the showroom floor which had performance parts as standard equipment.
The last three Daytona 88 racers were prepared over the winter of 61-62 for the daytona 200 that spring. Since the actual Domiracer would be illegal by AMA rules, these three bikes were built with production slimline frames and engine castings. To these were added Domiracer large-rod-journal cranks and rods, bucket tappets, needle-roller cams, a racing magneto and handed Amal GP carbs. Specail alloy tanks, Manx brakes and swingarm were used on the chassis. After 1962 Bracebridge street was closed and the racing shop was sold off to outside vendors, Nortons works racing days were gone forever.
The Berliner corporation who was the distributor for Norton in the USA from the late 1950's onwards had other ideas though. They wanted more Norton racing bikes for the 1964 Daytona race. Since the Norton racing shop was gone, AMC contracted with Paul Dunstall to produce them. Dunstall took four 88ss bikes and built them to racing specs. The engines were standard apart from having milled cylinders to increase compression, along with the addition of racing magnetos, handed Amal GPs and Dunstall exhausts with reverse=cone meggas and a crossover in front of the cylinders between the down pipes. Manx forks and wheels and fenders and special alloy tanks were added. These 1964 88ss bikes dynoed a bit over 50bhp.
Some racing twins were supplied for use other places besides Daytona. A few Daytona 88s were supplied to the Canadian Norton distributor a few times in the 1950s and a few were used in the early fifties to marshal at the Isle of Man races.
For both the Daytona Manx and twin racers, a special set of close-ration gears was used. In England these were known as "Scarborough" gears, and in the USA they were known as the Daytona gear set. Because the AMA required the use of a kick-start mechanism, first gear in the Norton box could by no higher than 2.3:1. So this first gear was used along with close-ratio racing 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears. The big jump between first and second was a disadvantage, but it was better than the standard and even lower street first gear ratio.
After the Norton Manx and Matchless G50 were both out of production and the might of Japanese motorcycle manufacturers was brought to bear on the USA and the AMA, the AMA started to let OHC engines and racing frame options into it's racing program.....And then it was left to Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki to battle in the board-room with Harley Davidson and each other over racing rules
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I had a set of Daytona gears in my B33, apparently made for Goldies at daytona. but finished thier life in the '68 Nepean 6HR behind the T100 motor.
cheers
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I'm a TRUE BLUE Short Circuit rider......and back in the Dim Dark early 70's, the Amaroo Park commentator , Arthur Rumsey, had a dream of running US style Flat Trackers at The Speedway Beside the Freeway, when it was FLAT.......I told him at the time.....I'm In, probably would have ridden a Triumph.....but as we know......it never happened !!...I hope it happens in my Lifetime.....Lots of talk.....let's get some ACTION !! ;D ;D
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Alvin the Turncoat, I'm shattered. :o >:(
Nah, if it means more bikes on track I don't give a shite, as long as the Goldie keeps kicking arse.
Turncoat, isn't that a Yanky Doodle Dandy quote?
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Alvin the Turncoat, I'm shattered. :o >:(
Nah, if it means more bikes on track I don't give a shite, as long as the Goldie keeps kicking arse.
Turncoat, isn't that a Yanky Doodle Dandy quote?
Steve.....not a Turncoat.......I just never got the HANG of a SLIDER....I love SIDEWAYS, but I just did it better on a CONVENTIONAL frame....Hence......Big Twin Flat Tracker !!
If it EVER gets off the ground, maybe a Yammy 650 would look good next to the SC 500... ;D
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I'm a TRUE BLUE Short Circuit rider......and back in the Dim Dark early 70's, the Amaroo Park commentator , Arthur Rumsey, had a dream of running US style Flat Trackers at The Speedway Beside the Freeway, when it was FLAT.......I told him at the time.....I'm In, probably would have ridden a Triumph.....but as we know......it never happened !!...I hope it happens in my Lifetime.....Lots of talk.....let's get some ACTION !!
The Aussie flat track scene was going from strength to strength in the mid 90's to early 00's with a well supported class running on the then popular Long Track speedway scene running on country trotting tracks. I saw fields of 20 or so bikes ranging from Harley XR750's to framer 750 Triumphs,BSA's and Yamaha's. The class was actually growing while the long track speedway class was fading but with the demise of both Ivan Mauger and Kevin McDonalds long track promotions the class faded away. With the large number of bikes being built and imported adding to those that already exist it's only a matter of time before the big bikes are entertaining the race punters again. Add to that the inclusion of short tracker bikes* in with the speedway program on Nepeans speedway track and the future's looking pretty bright for flat track style racing.
*Short trackers are essentially 250-500cc versions of the big flat track framed 750's set up for quarter mile tracks. Vintage versions can also of course run on the short circuit/dirt tracks in their respective capacity classes so there's plenty of rides coming up.
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Thanks Mark......I've been out of the GAME too long !!.....I'm 100% behind this side of the sport..... ;D
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alnin
your dream may come true later this year as i am importing a very fast 650/750 tr6r gen mile flattracker from the usa you can give it a punt around nepean. i also have 3 of the short track bikes as well but will be selling 2 of them as projects a 250 and a 500.will bring my fast cr250 champion to nepean next round
jim
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Short Circuit, Dirt Track, Long Track, Flat Track,
Feet Up and Full Lock,
Not many things more entertaining than them,
And it's on it's way back.
Troy Bayliss's efforts brought it back out in the open.
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Jim, When is next round? I will see you there hopefully on my A4....
Brett
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your dream may come true later this year as i am importing a very fast 650/750 tr6r gen mile flattracker from the usa
Jims Yetman 750 Triumph, my Shell OW72 750 Yamaha and SONS Starracer T500 Suzuki are all soon to depart sunny Las Vegas for sunny Sydney for their new life downunder. Another forum regular has purchased a Trackmaster BSA B50 that will receive his CCM engine....and no, it's not Jonesy although Alan did purchase a C&J Triumph frame out of Arizona but it's destined to become a street desert sled.
Below, Jims very rare, championship winning Yetman framed 750 Triumph. While it might not be the prettiest girl in the class, it's got an amazing history and race pedigree and is believed to be one of the fastest Triumphs in AHRMA racing.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/JIMSYETMAN_zpsc0a569e9.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/JIMSYETMAN_zpsc0a569e9.jpg.html)
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alnin
your dream may come true later this year as i am importing a very fast 650/750 tr6r gen mile flattracker from the usa you can give it a punt around nepean. i also have 3 of the short track bikes as well but will be selling 2 of them as projects a 250 and a 500.will bring my fast cr250 champion to nepean next round
jim
Great stuff Jim.........I should have my SC 500 completed by mid May and my plan is to give it its first Race run in June at Nepean..see you then..... ;D
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(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m605/Husky500evo/Rotaxflattracker_zps8203de85.jpg)
Forgive my ignorance on the subject of US flat track, but am I correct in saying that whenever a different make of bike began dominating the Harleys , the rules were changed to either ban them (as in the case of the Roberts TZ) or move them to another class (as with the Rotax powered bikes) ? I think that the Rotax powered flattracker in this pic, shown as an example, was John Kocinski's race bike.
That is a great shot of Kocinski's bike, is that recent? Jerry (John's dad) was building a new one for John to ride in Kansas, I felt the weight of the pipe and glass, super-light. It may be the same. The aim was to produce the lightest Ron Wood bike ever.
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Kocinski's two stroke mount is a real beauty as well. They build nice bikes that's for sure. Here is a good example of how to ride a two stroke consistantly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5h0zy-esQk
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That Ron Wood Rotax of Kocinski's is as trick as my old Nana's pumpkin scones. Check out the underslung Ohlins shock, P&M wheels and lightweight carbon fibre 'glass and titanium everywhere, the bike just oozes dollars. Kocinski could of course win on a bog stock dungmobile but why not have the baddest vintage racer out there if you can.? Does it race in the vintage classes Pete? http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/jkrotax09/ (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/jkrotax09/)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/3_zpsb0c927a3.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/3_zpsb0c927a3.jpg.html)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/28mfdj5_zps181e912c.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/28mfdj5_zps181e912c.jpg.html)
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he rode a trick xl350????? at the las vegas indoor short track in jan this year and won every race he entered pick on vft
jim
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Again, sorry for butting in but what Vintage class does that trickery fall into?
Excuse my ignorance of all things Flattrack.
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If you're refering to the rear suspension Slides, it looks a lot like a friends N.S.U from the early fifties.
pancho.
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Everything old is new again?
You'd know more about that than me Punchy. ;)
It is a great looking thing though and I'd love to throw the leg for a few laps.
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after the 2 bottles of j&b you will understand