OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: evo550 on December 09, 2012, 11:24:31 pm
-
So, I just finished a 3 day, level 2 MA officials course ( Level 1, Steward, CoC, Race sec and Scrut).
The first two days where for the key officials and today was set aside for the scrutineers course.
Throughout the whole course it was constantly drummed into us the the rule book was gospel and that if it's not in the MOMs it's not a rule, and the role of the official was to enforce the rules.
All was going well until the scrutineering today which called for us all outside going over some bikes and quads, the presenter first did a check on a bike which he found a few faults that he would want to be fixed before riding, 1 being a worn/torn grip where your thumb sits and 2 a sloppy rear wheel bearing. This is where I got a bit confused, no where in the MOMs does it mention anything about grips or wheel bearings as a rule. We then had to do some other bikes, one of the other guys had a bike missing plugged bar ends to which the presenter said he would let that through, but would advise the rider to make sure it was fixed before the next meet??? WTF thats a black and white rule. When questioned about the contradictions he said there was a rule that stated all machines needed to be in good condition.....just coukldn't find it right now.
Question is can anyone else find it ???
He also said that 2013 will require all forms of bikes to have a lanyard style kill switch fitted, anyone else heard this?
-
Welome to MA.
a contradiction in itself.
-
He is wrong, plugged handlebar ends are noted in All Disciplines, rule 12.8.6.1.
Can't say I've come across the rule decreeing that all bikes need to be "in good condition"...
Regarding the grips and wheel bearings, while not being in the interest of having a good, well-presented safe machine, neither would compromise the safety of the bike to impact on other competitors, so the bike would pass scrutineering but the scrutineer should draw these items to the competitor's attention and is within his rights to suggest or request that these items be rectified.
-
He is wrong, plugged handlebar ends are noted in All Disciplines, rule 12.8.6.1.
Can't say I've come across the rule decreeing that all bikes need to be "in good condition"...
Regarding the grips and wheel bearings, while not being in the interest of having a good, well-presented safe machine, neither would compromise the safety of the bike to impact on other competitors, so the bike would pass scrutineering but the scrutineer should draw these items to the competitor's attention and is within his rights to suggest or request that these items be rectified.
Exactly what I thought. Check what the rule book says to check and leave the rest. No wonder scrutineers are different from one to the next.
-
MoMs is printed in black and white but there is a lot of grey in it.
good one evo550 for having a go, you and your club will be better off for it.
-
Hello micks where yu bin?
-
witness protection ;) pancho
-
Come in from the cold micks, you'll be right!
-
Hey Evo,
Whats your enterpratation of the rules regarding "bark Busters" in dirt track, as far as I can read into it they are permitted but I have seen a bit of a kerfuffle at the track beetween riders and some scrutineers.
I love the alloy ones but I have been told they must be able to shatter. ???
-
Hey Evo,
Whats your enterpratation of the rules regarding "bark Busters" in dirt track, as far as I can read into it they are permitted but I have seen a bit of a kerfuffle at the track beetween riders and some scrutineers.
I love the alloy ones but I have been told they must be able to shatter. ???
Having seen two riders in 2012 still suffering the after effects of hideous broken wrists 12 months on I would agree that bark busters should be and are outlawed in dirt track and MX. Give me a broken lever everytime
-
I love the alloy ones but I have been told they must be able to shatter. ???
Not really, mate.
Re Track : MOMS 21.3.0.6 If hand protectors are used, they must be of a shatterproof material.
Re MX: MOMS 17.2.1.1 Hand lever protectors
(a) Must be single mounted for motocross and supercross
(b) May be double-mounted on machines in club and inter-club natural terrain motocross events.
I can see how that could get ugly very quickly when you go over the top on your tracker. Yeowch !
-
Having seen two riders in 2012 still suffering the after effects of hideous broken wrists 12 months on I would agree that bark busters should be and are outlawed in dirt track and MX. Give me a broken lever everytime
I can see how that could get ugly very quickly when you go over the top on your tracker. Yeowch !
I'd never ever considered bark busters being unsafe but once I think about I can see why they might cause some damage. I used to have bark busters on my enduro bikes that doubled up for dirt track duty but never had any problems during my numerous crashes, lucky I guess. It's one of those things I'd never have thought of :-\.
-
It all comes down to how you set your bark busters up.
I see a lot of guys have them pointing upwards in order to get around there levers but this is when they are at there most dangerous.
You really need them pointing downwards slightly so if you go over the bars your hands go over the top of them.
Typically it’s easier to ban something rather than work out how to avoid the problem.
-
We don't let bb on the track other than enduro meets, too many risks in arm getting caught and really there for trees not for much else. The rule of thumbs is if it looks unsafe it is, the grips is a crock of shit and I'd fight it if I presented a bike. The bar end plugged though is a must. Five cent piece fix it who secs.
Don't get draw into the whole micro management thing. The bikes first and foremost should be visually safe and entered in the right class. Your role should be to check they havent forgotten to put somthign back or tighten something on, usually after working on them, your another set of eyes. Taking screwdriver to the spokes and all that other over the top stuff is crap and only done by scrutinisers that don't know better. It's like valve caps should be fitted but would you send one home or would you tell them to grab one off there car ? its not life threatening. You also need to be very sure of your legal obligation, your only checking safely from a track point of view to others in the first instance ? And if you see something that could creat injury you need to explain it. All the rest is generally up the the anality of the scrutiner but don't get caught up in that puffery. Kill switches are not in the rules but you Would probally explain the effect of a chainsaw and ask for one to be fitted please... The biggest grief you Need to work out is your own interpretation of a chain guard and also sprocket guard, I still have guys on modern with open case savers fitted that think its ok, that one you get every other week.... Again I'd forget half of what the guy is telling you and focus on what rules are important to safety and what focus the bikes particularly in there discipline to be sure they are entered in the correct class. If its not right point it out to the race sec or Coc, your also there to catch the dumb forks who can't enter a bike in the right class. And if your doing vintage check they have a round slide .
-
And three days..... What could they possibly talk about for three days?
-
It all comes down to how you set your bark busters up.
I see a lot of guys have them pointing upwards in order to get around there levers but this is when they are at there most dangerous.
You really need them pointing downwards slightly so if you go over the bars your hands go over the top of them.
Typically it’s easier to ban something rather than work out how to avoid the problem.
Agree fully with your bb mounting reasoning but still do not agree that they should be fitted to dirt track or MX bikes.
They are very good in an enduro situation where they offer protection to hands as well as levers against trees and such. On a dirt track or MX track I can only see that they present a danger to the rider of the bike plus other riders. I cerntainly do not think the increased risk of someone being injured is offset by protecting a lever from being snapped in a fall on a closed circuit 100m from your pits.
I don't think Mr Goddard who first developed them ever thought of dirt track or MX.
-
And three days..... What could they possibly talk about for three days?
Freaky have you read that moms ??? you could waste a lifetime never mind 3 days picking holes in all the ambiguities and contridictions ::)
IMHO its a typical case of where a book is printed and then over many years added to , modified , and corrected, but for every other addition, modification and correction there is a knock on effect to another obscure rule that nobodys considered until you are unlucky enough to get stuck with an anorack scrutineer or sombody who really wants a trophy by protesting ;)
Probably spent a day and a half discussing the optional RM B alloy arm and still not reaching a concensus ;D
-
TMBill im a level 4, i have read the book more than once. IIRC in the front of the book it says this is a just a guide, its is to be used to focus what is being asked and assist in making consistant descions, it also says its NOT the be all and end all and that common sence is the overriding factor.........
like i said only some of the rules are definitive lines in the sand ( the obvious ones) the rest are used to assist in making judgment calls with the overridding common sence previous, hitting spokes with a spanner is outrageous. i think its the first or second page in ?> anyway that page is THE most important part of the book and should be the main focus of any course be it 3 days or a lifetime.
keep the faith
-
TMBill im a level 4, i have read the book more than once. IIRC in the front of the book it says this is a just a guide, its is to be used to focus what is being asked and assist in making consistant descions, it also says its NOT the be all and end all and that common sence is the overriding factor.........
There in lies the heart of the problem ;) how does the poor bastard who has driven 3 days to an event feel when he is turned away at a national event because YOUR common sense differs from his LOCAL grade 4 steward ? scrutineer who lets him run his bike at events :o
like i said only some of the rules are definitive lines in the sand ( the obvious ones)
So is every grade 4 steward / scrutineer throughout the country on the same page as to witch are the OBVIOUS ones ??? and how does the poor bastard who pays for a licence to know witch ones are the obvious ones and witch ones are there to fill in the spaces between the obvious ones
the rest are used to assist in making judgment calls with the overridding common sence previous, hitting spokes with a spanner is outrageous. i think its the first or second page in ?> anyway that page is THE most important part of the book and should be the main focus of any course be it 3 days or a lifetime.
keep the faith
What does IIRC mean ?
Like i said its fuct ;D due to the human element ;) could only be approved by a bloke who wrote his own employment contract ;)
-
We don't let bb on the track other than enduro meets, too many risks in arm getting caught and really there for trees not for much else. The rule of thumbs is if it looks unsafe it is, the grips is a crock of shit and I'd fight it if I presented a bike. The bar end plugged though is a must. Five cent piece fix it who secs.
Don't get draw into the whole micro management thing. The bikes first and foremost should be visually safe and entered in the right class. Your role should be to check they havent forgotten to put somthign back or tighten something on, usually after working on them, your another set of eyes. Taking screwdriver to the spokes and all that other over the top stuff is crap and only done by scrutinisers that don't know better. It's like valve caps should be fitted but would you send one home or would you tell them to grab one off there car ? its not life threatening. You also need to be very sure of your legal obligation, your only checking safely from a track point of view to others in the first instance ? And if you see something that could creat injury you need to explain it. All the rest is generally up the the anality of the scrutiner but don't get caught up in that puffery. Kill switches are not in the rules but you Would probally explain the effect of a chainsaw and ask for one to be fitted please... The biggest grief you Need to work out is your own interpretation of a chain guard and also sprocket guard, I still have guys on modern with open case savers fitted that think its ok, that one you get every other week.... Again I'd forget half of what the guy is telling you and focus on what rules are important to safety and what focus the bikes particularly in there discipline to be sure they are entered in the correct class. If its not right point it out to the race sec or Coc, your also there to catch the dumb forks who can't enter a bike in the right class. And if your doing vintage check they have a round slide .
There's alot in this one and will get back to it, but I'm not quite sure where it says "bike should be visually safe and your role is to check they haven't forgotten to put something back on or tighten something up"...I disagree, the scrutineers role is to check it complies with the rule book be that safety rules or not (numbers in areil bold MT font) ???
As for the front sprocket on a modern bike that's open, it should be alright. Just some vintage bike would have a problem.
-
TMBill im a level 4, i have read the book more than once. IIRC in the front of the book it says this is a just a guide, its is to be used to focus what is being asked and assist in making consistant descions, it also says its NOT the be all and end all and that common sence is the overriding factor.........
There in lies the heart of the problem ;) how does the poor bastard who has driven 3 days to an event feel when he is turned away at a national event because YOUR common sense differs from his LOCAL grade 4 steward ? scrutineer who lets him run his bike at events :o
like i said only some of the rules are definitive lines in the sand ( the obvious ones)
So is every grade 4 steward / scrutineer throughout the country on the same page as to witch are the OBVIOUS ones ??? and how does the poor bastard who pays for a licence to know witch ones are the obvious ones and witch ones are there to fill in the spaces between the obvious ones
the rest are used to assist in making judgment calls with the overridding common sence previous, hitting spokes with a spanner is outrageous. i think its the first or second page in ?> anyway that page is THE most important part of the book and should be the main focus of any course be it 3 days or a lifetime.
keep the faith
What does IIRC mean ?
Like i said its fuct ;D due to the human element ;) could only be approved by a bloke who wrote his own employment contract ;)
Spot on Bill, rule books are there to take the use of "common sense" away and provide clear and consistant direction that's the same where ever it's used. Not each and every official to make up their own rules as they go along.
-
It's all over for common sense nowadays, lawyers have made sure that it no longer exists.
Unfortunately although the rule book can appear a little murky, in the end the main problem is part-time officials who give inadequate focus to their task, ad-libbing, bullshitting and improvising their own interpretation without fully knowing or reading the relevant chapters. As we're continually told, you don't have to know the entire rulebook, as long as you know where to find the rules covering your application.
Another issue is people deciding they'll apply some rules they happen to like, and ignoring other rules they may not agree with in principle...this can only ever lead to problems...
"Nah, we don't care whether you wear a crash helmet or not, just so long as your sump plug's wired up..." :D
-
As a former level 4 Steward
(I refused to sign up and pay for this bloody "working with children permit bullshit " Shit after X amount of years helping kids try to have their motorcycle fun and being my wife's assistant with her Child Care Business,, being informed I was possibly the lowest form of degenerate scum bucket filth because I did not agree to this big brother do gooder crap piece of paper. I let my license lapse ,their loss.. >:( >:( >:( >:
The Manual of Motorcycle sport Australia is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, BUT you have to have something of a written basis to apply your common sense to and from. Lets face it, "pay your money, then make some possible rules up for the day as you have a quick look around whilst having a piss into the wind" attitude is not be the ideal way to effectively and safely run any event Title or basic club run.
-
..I disagree, the scrutineers role is to check it complies with the rule book be that safety rules or not (numbers in areil bold MT font) ???
As for the front sprocket on a modern bike that's open, it should be alright. Just some vintage bike would have a problem.
Mate no offence but if that's what you think after three days you need to be demoted back to level 1. Sprocket cover are mandatory on all bikes if there is a space of 30 mm form the swing arm pivot be it modern classic or a push bike..... From that response you bag me out for lines in the sand and then you say your letting a "modern break the rules cause it should be alright " is that a technical term ? My point being there are some rules we all inforce, other like font that you seem to be hot on checking, is literally irrelevant if it can be seen by a lap scorer and a normal style font it would be ok, Reality is most events these days use transponders so that negates most of your worries. Like I said you check the things that hurt people, then if you wanna play tap spokes knoc yourself out, its is up to you.
TMbill don't confuse scrutineering with eligibility there two differant tests. You won't get turned away from a national event based on a safety issue unless your issue is so forking obvious you should have fixed it no matter how stupid the rider is, such as a cracked frame, snapped shock, no muffler or a primary cover. Safety check the bleeding obvious. Eligibility scut intending is another matter, and basically you should be turned away if you try and enter a pre 78 bike in pre 70 or something as equally stupid.
-
"Like I said you check the things that hurt people, the rest is up to you."
Yep very well said Freaky ;) Cheers.
Still wondering what the aliens have done with the other Freaky :D
-
More important things going on these days, up to armpits in half finished projects rather than getting into pointless discussions anymore perhaps ;)
-
MOMs 1995 , 176 pages MOMs 2011 , 278 pages only 16 years mmm a lot more rules ? Iain
-
Nah that's suzuki and Yamaha adds, drug testing and teams rap ups and Os stuff
-
Yes, maybe you should have actually had a look at the two books side by side Ian.... a lot of history about our sport is also included in the new MOMS also... that said...there is also far too much advertising for my liking... still gotta pay for it somehow..
-
is common sense defined in the MOM's,
if you have a rear sprocket with only 3 bolts out 6 holding it on, is it safe to race, not is it raceable, but is it safe for rider and other competitors?
are pivot footpegs allowable? because they only have to be folding, or do we have to have a rule for everything.
hah, lets have a common sense rule and all get some balls, if your not complying with how the mom's are written, to best of your abillity, then you might have to change something, but you are the cause for the MOM's getting out of hand, its called the "why not factor".
cheers and merry Christmas
worms
-
..I disagree, the scrutineers role is to check it complies with the rule book be that safety rules or not (numbers in areil bold MT font) ???
As for the front sprocket on a modern bike that's open, it should be alright. Just some vintage bike would have a problem.
Mate no offence but if that's what you think after three days you need to be demoted back to level 1. Sprocket cover are mandatory on all bikes if there is a space of 30 mm form the swing arm pivot be it modern classic or a push bike..... From that response you bag me out for lines in the sand and then you say your letting a "modern break the rules cause it should be alright " is that a technical term ?. Like I said you check the things that hurt people, then if you wanna play tap spokes knoc yourself out, its is up to you.
Well point me in the right direction Freaky, a modern bike (1997 ktm 250 exc) measures nowhere near 30mm gap between the sprocket and the outside of the swingarm pivot, so I interpret that as acceptable under the MOMs, do you think otherwise?
(http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o82/evo550/IMG_0930.jpg)
I'm not having a go at anyone, and I'm certainly not going to be spoke tapping and wheel wobbling, I'm just wondering why others do it.
You level 4's are so wound up and highly strung, take a Bex and lie down.
-
spoke tapping
I'd like a $ for everytime we borrowed our spoke spanner this year at bike events.
Learn by example the riders of today for tomorrow ;)
cheers A
-
yer aar !!!! the 2013 MoMS is out on the MA website