OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Slakewell on September 08, 2011, 11:19:09 am
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As I almost took over the other thread regarding Feeling like Jim with 250 talk I think it deserves it own thread. So what is the best 250 and why? Must be a production bike.
1) KTM 250 , don't break very useable motor quality parts for the era.
2) Montesa VR light weight great handling ( once setup ) strong motor.
3) Yamaha YZ Very light weight power motor.
These are my opinions not fact. ;D
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As I almost took over the other thread regarding Feeling like Jim with 250 talk I think it deserves it own thread. So what is the best 250 and why? Must be a production bike.
1) KTM 250 , don't break very useable motor quality parts for the era.
2) Montesa VR light weight great handling ( once setup ) strong motor.
3) Yamaha YZ Very light weight power motor.
These are my opinions not fact. ;D
Hmmmmmm, (http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/icons/smiley-signs0251.gif)
;D
What, no CZ's or Maygo's ;)....and I only own a 'dull as' MX250 ;D.
We might get a decision at Crystal Brook this w.e. ;). But with MX bikes and the 'best of' I think you need to define a criteria and a factor weighting such as the type of track etc before you'll get close to a consensus (sorry if I've spoiled your fun).
As to your list, I'm not so certain of the Kattie being at the top of the list :P. It may or may not be 'in the mix' but the top of the heap? I know the Kattie was popular with the Bike mags with those classic 'don't worry about the quantity, just feel the quality' apologies, but I can't remember the Kattie winning anything here or oversea's at the time.
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I can't remember the Kattie winning anything here or oversea's at the time.
It did win the 74 GP world championship if that counts for anything.
I maybe wrong but I think they won a state title in WA as well
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I can't remember the Kattie winning anything here or oversea's at the time.
It did win the 74 GP world championship if that counts for anything.
Not as far as CZ owners go! ;)
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There's two ways I look at vintage bikes...with my heart, the bikes that I think are just plain cool, and with my head, the bikes that a clear clinical analysis tells me are the ideal race weaponS.
My 'heart' pre '75 250's are.....
*'74 Maico MC250
*'74 CZ250
*'74 Can-Am.
*'73 Yamaha MX250
My 'head' pre '75 250's are....
* '74 OSSA Phantom
* '74 Bultaco Pursang MkVII
* '74 Husky 250 Mag.
* '74 Yamaha YZ250 B
Being a lover of Frankenstein hot rods, I'd love to build the ideal racer using the best legal components available. I'd use a '74.5 LTR Maico frame and forks, the best handling bike in the category. I'd use the amazing Rotax 250 engine from the Can-Am, a Yamaha MX250 front hub, the best brake of the lot, and a Montesa Cappra rear hub, among the lightest and most beautiful legal rear hub. The Rotax engine is pretty good as is but amazing gains can be made with pipe,rotary disc and modern ignition mods. Add the plastic Can-Am tank, aftermarket plastic guards and a pair of Ohlins shocks and I doubt anything would match this baby on the track.
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(http://blog.derestricted.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/KTM_250.jpg)
(http://www.southwestmontesa.com/images/gal_earlyvr.jpg)
(http://p1.bikepics.com/2004%5C11%5C06%5Cbikepics-239410-full.jpg)
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How could you not put a YZ250A tank and straps on your Frankenbike Firko?....dont know about the Ohlins either.
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How could you not put a YZ250A tank and straps on your Frankenbike Firko?....dont know about the Ohlins either.
Just picked up a couple of sets of mint 14" Ohlins, when you have limited travel you want it to be the best quality limited travel.
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Do limited production bikes get a look in here ie Suzuki RH 250 1974
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Very close to first suggestion.
1/ 74 Montesa Capra - crinkle cut barrel - My first ride after 35yrs - great motor, good suspension, turned almost like a Maico, but faster.
2/ 73 KTM - jock strap holding the tank on - Bought new in 73, excellent power, good handling with the power on, handled all tracks, probably the one I'd sell my firstborn for.
3/ 73 Maico radial - made anyone look good - effortless handling - faster than made out to be, reliable, some say better handling/easier to ride than the 74.5. - I'll probably regret selling mine.
Mike
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(http://www.motodacross.com/kawasaki/kx250/1974.jpg)
gets my vote simply for being most overlooked and underrated ;)
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It's odd how no-one has picked the Honda Elsinore in their list.. it was by far the most popular '74 250 mx-er.
I think the '74 Bulaco Pursang rates up there with the best of them, they did a lot of winning both here and in the US.
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One of the small niggles that shit's me regarding the nats , If you take this bike as is , and most were made and stamped as 74 models they don't pass because of the layed down shocks. Brad has his 74 400 sin bin at the nats with factory shock layout. Maico that were common as are NP , Husky Mag with 6" rear end NP but the Kato because there rare get knocked backed.
You can bolt the rear shock up near the seat and no one cares they still have good travel , just shits me is all
(http://blog.derestricted.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/KTM_250.jpg)
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The Maico and Husky have to be travel limited to 4", maybe someone should lobby to have the KTM made legal to use with the laid down shocks but limited to 4"
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I have never seen a Maico or Husky with limited suspension nor would I protest I believe that if it came from the factory in 74 like that, it should run as is. The funny stuff with the YZ B is the rear end while no one says anything about 9" travel front forks.
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(http://www.motodacross.com/kawasaki/kx250/1974.jpg)
gets my vote simply for being most overlooked and underrated ;)
Docs nailed it ;D i dont know much about the Euros ??? but i have only heard good things :) 74 KX 250 for me , a little suspension work and its a top contender ;) YZ 250A overrated over priced silver TM 250 ;D Rode Brads greenstripe 250 at Conondale nats :) only thing not competitive on that bike was the rider ;D great bike. TM 250 just a cheaper yellow YZ with better motor ;) YZ 250B well thats just cheating ;D Would love a ride on a Bully , Katie. Ossa and Maico . If money no object then RH 250 all day :)
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I have never seen a Maico or Husky with limited suspension nor would I protest I believe that if it came from the factory in 74 like that, it should run as is. The funny stuff with the YZ B is the rear end while no one anything about 9" travel front forks.
A YZB doesn't have anywhere near 9" fork travel.
Every '74 LTR Maico i've seen racing has spacers on the shock shaft to limit the travel
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Ossa Phantom, for the looks alone.
Supposed to be a very good thing to ride, but I wouldn't know...
Personally, I think there's a difference between the bike you'd get if it was perfectly sorted and you wanted to win the Nats, compared to the bike you want to live with week-in, week-out (including paying for parts and the nights in the shed). Dunno how this fits with Slakewell's definition of "best".
I had a Cappra that I sold unfinished, and kept my MX250, which probably says a lot about my priorities...
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You a Yamma Luva Nathan
Brett
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FWIW my top 3;
74 Mag Husky
MK 5/6/7/ Bully.
74 Ossa Phantom.
The mag is a very competitive bike but a real handful. I sold mine because of the lack of bottom end and scary, screaming top end (and, my danglies kept getting trapped between the seat and tank). If I was a fearless 11 stoner, I'd still own it. But Sadly... Also, along with my other choices, probably the best looking trio from any era or manufacturer, EVER.
If competitiveness is a prime goal then MK7. MK5 for looks and MK6 because it's a Bultaco (and red).
I would want a friend to own the Ossa, because I could get a ride one of the most beautiful motocross machines ever created now and then, but wouldn't have to worry about replacement parts.
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KTM 250? Close, but no cigar.
You need the 400 ;D...
...with the lighter MX flywheel....
..use a soft crossbar pad and a good full face helmet.
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I also like these http://forums.mxtrax.co.uk/showthread.php?p=4080149&posted=1#post4080149
Am I allowed a 4th choice? (or 1st reserve)
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There's almost too many at the pointy end to choose from.
Apart from the unobtainium (RH), I'd go w the lightweight weapons - ie any one of the spanish:
'Sang, Phantom or VR perhaps in any order. They had the handles, suspension, power & (lack of) weight.
A hairs breadth behind would be KX (w suitable suspension mods), F11M & YZ-B
A nose further back would be a CZ (tricked out), MAG & KTM
Then a TM-L, 'Snore, DT2M, 73MX, Maico, Cooper & Canam - each w suitable mods
But you could throw a blanket over the whole lot - well, most of them.
Just splitting hairs really.
I'd be happy with them all... I mean, any of them.
Heck, I'd even have a quirky Brit - Rickman or Ajay Stormer. (Probably not a Greeves or Sprite tho!)
And weren't there a couple of Italian stallions who just snuck in before 75?
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Ok I'm a bit confused as the thread asks for the best pre 74 not pre 75 so here is my own opinion.
I raced two TM250's, a CR250 and MC250 Maico in 73 all new models for that year. The hands down winner was the Maico by a long way.
If we are talking pre 75 then I had a new VR250 crinkle cut for a few months before changing to two Mk7 Bultaco's for the rest of 74. I believe the Mk7 250 was the nicest most competetive 250 available in 74, maybe not the most powerful but the best overall package.
The Montesa was very fast but in my opinion didn't handle as well as a lot of other 74 250's but you must remember this was the start of the suspension revolution with either factory LTR available or the countless frame modifications made to other brands.
I can honestly say I didn't see any KTM's win races here in 73 or 74 but I may be wrong. The KTM's were very rare around our area but the ones we saw were beautifly made. There was only a couple of riders doing well on Ossa's such as Steve Cramer and Bernie Ryan but generally most races were won by Mk7's or YZB's in 74.
Funnily enough my choice now is the 74 KX250 which we never considered back in the day as a serious option but now for some strange reason they really appeal to me (Luckily I do have one which I will build soon)
This is only my opinion but it is the way I saw it back then in the day.
Stan.
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How could you not put a YZ250A tank and straps on your Frankenbike Firko?....dont know about the Ohlins eithe
As much as I like the YZ tank* John, it's a distinctive bit of gear that's automatically connected with the Yamaha, and with the front wheel being the only Yamaha part used it wouldn't fit the plan. My Frankenbike is defined by its engine so I figure using the Can Am the tank keeps the concept in touch with its movitational force.
As far as Ohlins...shocks are a personal choice, I should have written "add quality shocks of choice".
* clearing up the garden shed earlier in the week I found a fairly straight YZ250A tank that I'd forgotten I had. No, it's not for sale ;).
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I have never seen a Maico or Husky with limited suspension nor would I protest I believe that if it came from the factory in 74 like that, it should run as is. The funny stuff with the YZ B is the rear end while no one says anything about 9" travel front forks.
Mick, you mustn't have been looking too hard as my '74's were always limited as were every '74 that I scrutineered over the years. No limiters, no race. As far as the YZ-B having 9" of travel.....not a chance. They're a smidgen over 7", not enough to worry them in scrutineering. I suspect the first 9" Yamaha forks came with the X model but I stand to be corrected.
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(http://) I will take this over any other bike available although I am biased because I race this one currently(http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae297/yz360a/100_0816.jpg). Fast, Light and trick as hell !
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(http://) I will take this over any other bike available although I am biased because I race this one currently(http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae297/yz360a/100_0816.jpg). Fast, Light and trick as hell !
I think I would too - either bog stock as 'in the day' or as a current day race bike. The basis of good power, light weight, reliability and reasonable suspension are all there and can only be improved with modern thinking, technology and tuning.
And then there's the 'factory' looks and exclusivity 8).
And the history. This bike was the game changer. Hello Japanese, good bye European ;).
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(http://) I will take this over any other bike available although I am biased because I race this one currently(http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae297/yz360a/100_0816.jpg). Fast, Light and trick as hell !
Yes but what about cleaning the air filter >:(
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I love the YZ A model but I'd challenge your statement about them being the bike that changed the game Graeme. As flawed as the Honda CR250 Elsinore was, it really was the first truly competitive Japanese motocrosser. They were cheap, featured beautiful finish and design and went like the powers of piss. They're still the racers choice today....you'll see more Elsinores in the class than anything else.
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Slake, Glad you asked about the airbox - stock they are a pain in the ass but I am using a 75 mx250b plastic 2 sided airbox bolted right up to the stock YZA frame mounts and fits like a glove ! Firko -You are right regarding the Honda , the cr250 was brought out in 73 and it was very affordable and in 74 the YZA shows up in limited quantitys at almost twice the price hence the reason CR's are and were more popular.
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I used to remove the rear wheel and inner guard to change (clean) mine. >:(
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The thing about the early 70's bikes was that it was obvious where they were made and how they captured the personality of that particular country. A clear example is the Spanish trio. Colourful (think Phantom purple and orange!!), flashy and sometimes unreliable. Swedish steel. Staid, conservative, well engineered a bit bland maybe but did the job. Etc, etc, etc. For mine the era ended with the advent of plastic tanks. Cheers Jerry
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One of my favourite pre '75 250's is the stunning looking '72 Yamaha DT2MX. This was Yamaha's first purebred motocross bike not based of an existing trailbike and while it wasn't quite good enough to knock over the Euros and have the punters tripping over themselves to buy them, it was a great stepping stone for the not that far off YZA models. The DT2MX featured a finish the Euros could only dream about and a great engine that was unfortunately tied into a frame that didn't quite cut it in the handling and suspension stakes. Today, with the exception of the YZ360A and OW works bikes, the DT2MX and its 360cc RT2MX brother are the rarest of Yamahas motocross lineup.
I've bought two in from the USA recent times but sold one to Dave Alsop who soon sold it on again. Regretting that decision I recently bought another roughie for $200 out of Sanfrancisco which is currently on its way. Since that I've bought a tank, side panels and graphics kit. I'll wait until it gets here to see what else is needed. The guy who sold me the tank specialises in DT2MX restos and he's told me he'll help out with supplying the annoying little things that invariably make proper restoration so frustrating. I had intended to strip this bike for parts for my specials but my fellow 'good'ol boys' have convinced me that it's too complete and rare to chop up. So, despite my wish never to get involved in any more ground up perfect restos, this is about to become my long term "other resto''....the bike I'll work on when bored with the main interest bikes.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/PHOTO_12435451_29029_3182066_ap.jpg)
Below, the DT2MX I bought for $300 from the Arizona desert and sold to Dave Alsop who then sold it on again
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/DT2MX%202.jpg)
The DT2MX currently on its way is better than it looks. It actually runs and most of the fidly bits are in a box with it.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/DT2MXB.jpg)
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Ossa Phantom, for the looks alone.
Supposed to be a very good thing to ride, but I wouldn't know...
When I get mine restored it will be up for test rides.
FWIW my top 3;
74 Mag Husky
MK 5/6/7/ Bully.
74 Ossa Phantom.
I would want a friend to own the Ossa, because I could get a ride one of the most beautiful motocross machines ever created now and then, but wouldn't have to worry about replacement parts.
Ossa World is a one stop shop for ALL Ossa parts. From piston kits to rod kits to replacement everything. They even do a replacement fuel cap and original lever assy's. It will be very easy to maintain.
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Dont forget Steve Eastham in Melbourne for Ossa fibreglass tanks, guards, badges, fuel caps and upholstery. Excellent quality and value. He's also a good bloke and a font of Ossa know how. Cheers Jerry
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Dont forget Steve Eastham in Melbourne for Ossa fibreglass tanks, guards, badges, fuel caps and upholstery. Excellent quality and value. He's also a good bloke and a font of Ossa know how. Cheers Jerry
Good to know Jerry. Can I have a contact number please?
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Ossa World is a one stop shop for ALL Ossa parts. From piston kits to rod kits to replacement everything. They even do a replacement fuel cap and original lever assy's. It will be very easy to maintain.
I might have to re-shuffle my top 3.
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Quote from: jerry on Yesterday at 04:52:41 PM
(Dont forget Steve Eastham in Melbourne for Ossa fibreglass tanks, guards, badges, fuel caps and upholstery. Excellent quality and value. He's also a good bloke and a font of Ossa know how. Cheers Jerry
Good to know Jerry. Can I have a contact number please?)??????????????????
we have our own ossa expert in fiberglas and he also races them matcho mick
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Stephen Eastham 18 Bourke Road Mt Evelyn Vic 03 97361958
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Note the LTR suspension - 1973 ;).
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/OzVMX/HondaCR250_600.jpg)
http://www.motorcyclemuseum.org/asp/classics/bike.asp?id=96
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Note the LTR suspension - 1973 .
Like most works bikes, this Honda would have been a rolling laboratory for improvements and ideas. The bike might have started life in 1973 but I'd reckon those Maicoesque suspension mods wouldn't have appeared until 1974. The photo below, taken from the same source as the above shot, shows Gary Jones on the bike with more conventional suspension settings.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Honda_1973_Elsinore_600.jpg)
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When did Maico go LTR? - first event?
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Notice that the engine in that LTR RC is very diff to prod'n CR - at least the bottom end is.
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looks like a much different clutch on the works cr250
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Note the LTR suspension - 1973 ;).
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/OzVMX/HondaCR250_600.jpg)
http://www.motorcyclemuseum.org/asp/classics/bike.asp?id=96
Most of the factory bikes had LTR suspension in '73. Gary Jones rode for Honda in '73 and this is his '73 works bike, in the other pic he's on a '73 CR250 production bike. In '74 he rode Yamaha.
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I believe in '74 he rode a Can-Am. ('72 Yamaha, '73 Honda, '74 Can-Am)
In US Vintage MX it seems to be YZ250As, Ossa Phantoms, Husky Mags and Tricked out Elsinores that are in the winner's circle more times than not.
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I believe in '74 he rode a Can-Am. ('72 Yamaha, '73 Honda, '74 Can-Am)
Yes you're right... brain fade :)
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Being a lover of Frankenstein hot rods, I'd love to build the ideal racer using the best legal components available. I'd use a '74.5 LTR Maico frame and forks, the best handling bike in the category. I'd use the amazing Rotax 250 engine from the Can-Am, a Yamaha MX250 front hub, the best brake of the lot, and a Montesa Cappra rear hub, among the lightest and most beautiful legal rear hub. The Rotax engine is pretty good as is but amazing gains can be made with pipe,rotary disc and modern ignition mods. Add the plastic Can-Am tank, aftermarket plastic guards and a pair of Ohlins shocks and I doubt anything would match this baby on the track.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m605/Husky500evo/DSC03189_zps117c3c2b.jpg)
My Maico/Rotax hybrid project has stalled because of work commitments and I didn't get to enter it in this years Nats as planned, but I hope to have it going for next years in QLD. Geoff Morris did all the hard work for me, like fitting the motor into the frame and making the pipe and I probably should have asked him if he could have made me an airbox while he had the bike there. It has been brought to my attention that the pipe may have the longest stinger section in the world, so I might look at having the muffler under the seat, with a tail pipe out and around the top of the left shock. I was going to use a Yamaha front wheel like Firko mentioned in his post, for the strongest front brake.I even looked at a Montesa VR rear hub that I had lying around a while back ,but from memory, it was too wide for the Maico swingarm.
I was lucky enough to have a ride on a Can Am MX2 250 on the pre '78 track at CD8 and was very impressed with the amazing motor.
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:o that pipe has a bit of welding involved :o.
It will be interesting hybrid. I for one will be interested to hear of your ride impressions.
It looks a neat fit 8).
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I remember lifting that into Brads trailer at the last nats.
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I remember Geoff swearing about how difficult it all was to make fit :D
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I remember Geoff swearing about how difficult it all was to make fit :D
I think that Geoff would have been cursing me for insisting on an up-pipe, where a down pipe would have been far easier to make and fit . It's just that most of the race tracks that I will get to ride the bike on will be at modern bike meetings, where they allow us to run some vintage support classes. A down pipe would be destroyed in no time on these type of tracks. I may look at getting a down pipe made at a later date to avoid controversy when I take it to a title meeting. The up-pipe has a bit of a "Poison Lil" look about it and will probably annoy some of the purists. I don't think that fitting the motor to the frame would have caused major problems, as there seemed to be plenty of room and the sprockets lined up fairly well.
In any case , I don't think that I will be troubling the guys on the rostrum in the pre '75 250 field, as I am only an average rider and it seems like a very competitive class. I just want to try and have the most competitive bike to make up for my lack of ability :D. Even though I couldn't get enough time away from work to ride at the Crystal Brook Nats, I still managed to drive down from NQ to spectate for Friday and half of Saturday's racing. One thing that I noticed , was that the front runners in some of the classes were on models of bikes that would have been my last preference. For example, the guys up front in the pre '78 125 class were on CR125 M3s. You wouldn't have seen this back in 1977, when most of the fast guys would have been on RM125Bs or YZs, which were far better bikes than the '77 Hondas. Also the guy leading in the pre '78 250 class was on a '75 CR250 Honda :o. Just goes to show that it comes back to a formula, that I think is about 70% rider, 20% bike and 10% luck, in winning races ;).
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Cool bike Mark. I remember having a deep discussion over a vintage congac (honestly) with my old chum Rick Doughty over the pros and cons of various hybrid combinations. He and I came to the conclusion that the Rotax / Maico hybrid would be the perfect combo for pre '75, closely followed by a YZ250A powered Maico.
I actually bought a TNT 250 to bastardize for the engine to build my version but I couldn't bring myself to break up a complete and fairly rare bike to build a hot rod. I soon abandoned the plans and moved on to other stuff. I'm glad you've taken up the challenge Mark and if it's as nice as your other tackle it'll be a formidable bit of kit.
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One thing that I noticed , was that the front runners in some of the classes were on models of bikes that would have been my last preference. For example, the guys up front in the pre '78 125 class were on CR125 M3s. You wouldn't have seen this back in 1977, when most of the fast guys would have been on RM125Bs or YZs, which were far better bikes than the '77 Hondas. ............... that I think is about 70% rider, 20% bike and 10% luck, in winning races ;).
I often wonder if this is the explanation of why a bike that was renown as a 'dog' back in the day becomes a Starlet today.
It could be that bikes that were damned and doomed by a slight technical imperfection were avoided like the plague - there just wasn't the time or inclination to develop a bike (by the punters (mass market) that is - dealers and distributors may have had the time, money, expertise and motivation.
It could also be the simply application of some modern technology can turn a 'dog' into a Starlet - e.g. suspension or a bit of porting etc.
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It could also be the simply application of some modern technology can turn a 'dog' into a Starlet - e.g. suspension or a bit of porting etc.
........and we're all a bit older and smarter these days ;D
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I often wonder if this is the explanation of why a bike that was renown as a 'dog' back in the day becomes a Starlet today.
Back in the day we took what we read in magazines very seriously so when a magazine hammered a bike like the TM400 or SC500 we believed them. In many cases the magazines were correct in ther assumptions but they often went overboard, hammering bikes that except for a few small flaws, weren't as bad as they made out. For example: Maico 250's always copped a hammering from the press but on the track their so-called shortcomings weren't all that noticable. The press never thought much of TM250 Suzuki's, considering them heavy, boring beginner bikes but since the advent of vintage racing the model has been one of the more popular and succesful bikes in pre '75. In fact, in that short suspension era all Japanese bikes copped criticism, some deserved, some a bit cruel. The Euro bikes were generally better but the difference wasn't as big as Dirt Bike or Motocross Action would have you believe.
Today, thirty years later we've learned a lot about set up and suspension so even if a bike didn't cut it back in '74, the improved fork technology, shocks, ignition and pipe design have worked wonders on improving what probably wasn't all that bad a bike in the first place.