OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: firko on August 19, 2011, 12:07:39 pm
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I've been asked a number of times why I love aftermarket framed vintage racers so much. Like all of us I appreciate good workmanship and with my being a boilermaker/TIG welder by trade I can't help appreciating the craftmanship that goes into a hand made aftermarket or works frame. Where most standard production frames are MIG or robot welded, the small volume guys most often use either TIG or bronze welding (brazing) on their products. I was Googling this morning looking for something completely apart from VMX when I came upon a 2009 thread on http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13029447 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13029447) relating to the fine welding these craftmen produced.
With utmost respect to the source of these photos Im posting them here for you to check out for true TIG welding craftmanship. I'll got out to the shed a bit later to photograph my Hindalls, Metisse and Cheney to show the same quality but in brazing.
Below: Ray Hemsley was a pioneer in TIG welding motorcycle race frames, he'd worked with frame pioneer Kenny Watkins at Sonic Welding where he honed his TIG skills.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/ray%20Hensley%20-%20trackmaster.jpg)
Lyn Kasten welded all of his REDLINE frames. He built motocross,and BMX frames as well as flat trackers.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/lyn%20kasten-redline%202.jpg)
My personal favourite TIG welder has to be the late, great Doug Schwerma of CHAMPION Frames fame. His welding was beyong reproach in my eyes. Like Kasten at Redline Shwerma also made MX and BMX frames.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Doug%20Schwerma%3D%20champion.jpg)
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Firko
I purchased a new welding helmet this year with built in optical lenses, the difference is amazing I can do the fine TIG again, If you don't have one already I can't recommend highly enough. I'm even thinking of doing a project of my own custom frame again.
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Here's some of Harry Hindalls work:
My Hindall Yamaha 360
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/IMG_6087.JPG)
My Hindall Yamaha 250
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/IMG_6090.JPG)
My Hindall Ducati
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/IMG_6092.JPG)
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Hi Mark where do you get those helmets and ho :'(w much. I am struggling with my eyes when welding. Is it a auto darkening helmet.Thanks Neil.
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Neil, it's not me with the helmet it's Slakewell. My eyesight's not so good welding either, I'll probably need one myself ;D.
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what a feast for the eyes.....
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I hear what you are saying Friko, old Eric knew how to braze one up and that is part of the attraction of Cheneys and Rickmans you can feel the love.... plus if you compare it to the welded products our of Jaapan at the time there isn't a comparison.
But my welding craftsmanship vote goes to Spondon, FTR, Harris the bespoke British alloy frame makers, a Spondon is assembled and tacked, dismantled, polished and prepped, retacked, welded, normalised, polished there are about 10 very painful steps and a lesson in total weld prep and purity.
My TIG is decent and the only welding I like to do.....but I am not truly worthy,
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/IMG_3482-2.jpg)
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q43/alvington89/CIMG1610.jpg)
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Todays production aluminium frames's weld quality is as good if not better than days of yore. Time would be the key the bespoke frame builder does not have XX amount of minutes to weld a frame.
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Not all Japanese frames from the '60s had crappy welding. Have a look at the welding on the rear shock bracket/gusset on my '69 F21M (ignore the welding on the seat bracket above the shock mount, that is not OEM welding). All the welds on the frame are of the same quality as that on the shock bracket. Doesn't look too different from an aftermarket job!
Ken
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/vmxken/F21M.jpg)
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That's pretty impressive for a Japanese production bike Ken, especially one so old. The Suzuki and Yamaha product of the same era was MIG welded and as strong as it is, it's visually quite ugly. TIG weldings big downfall is that it's very time consuming, making it a pretty expensive proposition for big production runs. From memory the F21M was a comparitively low volume bike that was bordering on 'works' bike type availability in its day. How many F21M's were produced Ken? If I didn't know better, I'd say those frames were made in the USA.
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I do have the production numbers somewhere but can't find them at the moment. The F21M certainly sold in far fewer numbers than the 100cc (G31M) version. What is stated definitively in the F21M Instruction Manual I have is that the frame and swingarm are CrMo, which would have been very special for a Jap bike in the '60s.
Ken
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/vmxken/Page7.jpg)
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Yes, they were low volume Mark. 1st prod'n cro-mo jap frame too, if I recall correctly. They are very light.
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I hear what you are saying Friko, old Eric knew how to braze one up and that is part of the attraction of Cheneys and Rickmans you can feel the love....
Yeah Marc, Eric may have been a cranky old codger but he most definitely knew how to run a bead. Here's an overexposed shot of my Cheney's steering head area (I'll replace it with a better shot later on today :-[). I'll also drag out and my Metisse and Boyd and Stellings Suzuki a bit later to add to the aftermarket frame show ;D
For the non welders among us note the easily spotted difference between the American flat track constructors TIG welds and Hindall and Cheney's brazing. They're vastly different techniques achieving the same result. To the uninitiated you'd think that Harry Hindall (USA) and Eric Cheney (UK) had learned to weld at the same trade school, their welding being so similar. When it came to welding new engine mounts in my Cheney flat tracker I had access to TIG and one of the best welders in Sydney offering to do it for me but in reverence to Harry I opted to braze them. Even though I did the best job I could muster, a blind man could tell the Firko welds from Harry's work ::).
Anyone else got some frame welding shots to add to the mix? Jim, what about your Star Racer and Wassco?
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/IMG_6094.JPG)
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Hi Mark where do you get those helmets and ho :'(w much. I am struggling with my eyes when welding. Is it a auto darkening helmet.Thanks Neil.
I got mine from Jaymac welding in Tamworth , $300 or so
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I remember Eric Cheney telling me he was taught to braze by an old woman that used to build Huricane fighters in the war!! I was taught by Miles Webb 35 years ago and I've nearly got the hang of it.
(http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/derekksi/IMG_6755.jpg)(http://[IMG]http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/derekksi/216546610-X2.jpg)
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Id just love to weld like that, but my welding is like my singing.
NOT good :)
Harry
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Rodger Titchmarsh and Ken Sprayson still do as good as job as any ever done.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/20110113155536_seeleyclose.png)
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I remember Eric Cheney telling me he was taught to braze by an old woman that used to build Huricane fighters in the war!! I was taught by Miles Webb 35 years ago and I've nearly got the hang of it.
(http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/derekksi/IMG_6755.jpg)(http://[IMG]http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/derekksi/216546610-X2.jpg)
mmm yes not bad (!)
bit more practice and you'll just about be there........ (!!!!!!!)
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Original Rickmans = Brian Curtis who made alot of the frames whilst working in New Milton.
He then went onto HLs, then his own Curtis bikes and still does beautiful work to this day.
The late great Pat French saw my Curtis Honda frame at our local platers and was all over it admiring the work. When Pat French says something is good, you take note!
MRD frames (Pat French) or course beautiful and needs no introduction. I once had a known bike builder stop at my place. He could tell the Metisse I was building wasnt one of Pat's from 20 yards, just by the looking at the brazing ~ from 20 yards away!
Moving on from Pat is Mojo. Mark worked with Pat for many years and often said that Mark's work was better than his ~ now that really is saying something.
Mojo continue the tradition to this day.
There are other builders in the UK that build frames batches of 10. (name is kept secret so people dont bother him with requests!!!!!) His work is the equal of any. Beautiful brazing, quality tubing with stunning details. I will try and get some pics.
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Alan Brown in Bristol is well up there with the greats. A true master craftsman if ever there was one.
Whilst he is not known for building frames that doesnt mean he couldnt and hasnt ~ becuase he has! He really is the original one stop shop from wheel building, farbrication, engine building, you name it he does it and he does it very well.
Some of the best bits on my bike have been done by Alan.
I love going there and watching him work, hoping some of it may rub off on me!
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Not all Japanese frames from the '60s had crappy welding. Have a look at the welding on the rear shock bracket/gusset on my '69 F21M
Hey Ken looks like they used a different guy to Suzuki frames, Suzuki must have kept the good guys welding gas tanks. I am always blown away by guys who can gas weld alloy sheet.... that's heat control
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Kin ell, this isn't my brazing Miles Webb did this. I did tack it together if that counts. Mine still loks likes pidgeon crap compared to Miles. If you ever fancy having a go, get yourself a gas flux tank. It makes thing 100% easier.
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Moving on from Pat is Mojo. Mark worked with Pat for many years and often said that Mark's work was better than his ~ now that really is saying something. Mojo continue the tradition to this day.
Klub Kevlar's esteemed Grand Poobah Frank Stanborough is currently building a drop dead gorgeous Mojo 'Harris Replica' framed Matchless G85CS. I visited Franks place on Thursday with the intention of taking some photos to post here but Frank banned me from doing so, stating that he wants to debut the bike in VMX Magazine prior to its race debut and didn't want to spoil the surprise. The workmanship by Mojo's Mark Jannick is nothing short of extraordinary and not wanting to hide such beautiful welding under layers of paint, Frank's had the frame powder coated in satin clear, giving it the 'au natural' look. Anyone who has ever had a good close look at Franks Manx Norton Metisse and incredibly trick NSU Sportmax powered Greeves will know that Frank is no slouch in engineering excellence himself. The bike features some amazing lateral thinking and innovation yet still maintains period integrity to appease the rule Nazis.
Mark Jannick is a young bloke with old world skills as the photos below of a Mojo 'Arthur Harris Replica' identical to Franks and both BSA replicas show. The unpainted look shown is how Franks bike will look underneath a sea of polished alloy and housing the highly modified Matchless motor (Frank is responsible for Glenn Evans rocket fast Australian Classic Dirt Track Championship winning Matchless Metisse engine, arguably the fastest pre 65 bike in Australia)
Mojo Arthur Harris Replica
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Mojo%201.jpg)(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Mojo%202.jpg)(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/mojo%203.jpg)
Mojo BSA Gold Star Replica
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/mojo%20goldy.jpg)(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/mojo%20goldy%202.jpg)
Mojo BSA Victor GP replica
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/mojo%20victor%203.jpg)(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/mojo%20victor.jpg)(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Mojo%20victor%202.jpg)
Mojo road bike clip on handlebars displaying Mark Jannicks extraordinary brazing skills.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/clip-on.jpg)
http://www.mojomotorbikes.co.uk/aboutus.html (http://www.mojomotorbikes.co.uk/aboutus.html)
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The Mojo Arthur Harris is something I would love but saving for new car right now for my repatriation.
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Here's a few more from the shed.
below: Eric Cheney was one of the best as shown here in a better shot of my Cheney steering head area. As neat as his welds are Harry Hindall and later Mojo have taken the old skill to new heights.(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/IMG_6101.JPG)
Derek and Don Rickman's work is considered to be amongst the best in the business. In the 70's Rickman moved up a notch from being a specialist frame maker to become mass producers with their Rickman Zundapp and Rickman Montesa high volume production runs. Because of the increased workload a production line was introduced and less exacting welding became the norm because of the time factor becoming a major priority. Whilst the welds were as strong and safe as ever, their appearance seemed to become less important as seen on my micro Metisse Zundapp frame.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/IMG_6099.JPG)
Although this isn't a motorcycle, my aluminium framed mountain bike was made by American flat track legend Mert Lawwill using the same exacting TIG techniques used in the flat track motorcycle frames.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/IMG_6097.JPG)
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having seen Franks Mojo frame i can vouch the welding is f....n great and a work of art