OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: 090 on June 20, 2011, 09:32:46 am
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Bit of a long story so here goes.
I bought a frame on my fathers behalf by a guy named Robert. The frame was sent via USPS. He said he sent it straight away even though he originally said it would be a while before he could send it as he was in the middle of moving. No sweat. He in fact got a friend to send it for him who dealt with me originally as I bought a set of twin pipes from him via ebay ( Russell was his name). After asking the question " what else do you have " Russell informed me that he was selling the pipes for a friend ( Robert) and gave me his email address and that is how we got the frame. Now Russell sent the frame to the Aussie that bought the exhaust pipes for the twin pipe. Frame sent, cool! It had been a bit long in getting here so I sent an email asking where it was to which the reply was that it was sent ages ago and an email was sent to me with the tracking number as well. I said that I never received the email so could you send it again so I could start tracking the frame.
So a day or so later I get a phone call. You would never guess who.....Dave Alsop!!! Dave ( currently ::) Saabcombie on here) says ''it looks like I have your frame that you bought from the States. I said ''What? How the hell did you get that?'' Well it seems that 'ol Dave ALSO bought a set of twin pipes for his Jawa 'keeper'. Russell made the mistake of sending it to the other Aussie guy that bought a set of pipes. Christmas had come twice for 'ol Dave. A frame just turned up from America . The same frame that he put up on OZVMX asking to I.D. it.Note that he says he bought the frame for his Jawa! http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=18986.0 . The same frame that I offered to buy off him ( can't have too many frames ;) ) that he turned down and then listed it on ebay for sale. That's right! No, he didn't get in contact with the sender to ask why he sent a frame to him.
Anyway, so then he it sells on ebay! Lucky for me it is sold to a Queenslander that lives 20 minutes away and I also know them! Lisa and Brian . Dave told me who it was but didn't know how to contact them. I said I know them and would contact them. Understandably they weren't happy. Lisa even more so, and so she should have been. She had started collecting other parts as well.
So Dave got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Shows you how dumb he is to think it wouldn't come back to him. He has since paid Lisa all the money back including freight and Dad now has the frame. He made out to me in his initial phone call that he had no idea how to find out who owned the frame ( he obviously can't read who the sender was which makes sense as he is illiterate) , held it for a while and sold it after a few weeks of it not being claimed. He told Lisa it was his frame that he decided to move on as he was never going to use it, also told her after the mix up (I mean when he was busted) that he also bought a frame and thought that was the one, but he has done no such thing. As a matter of fact he has asked on the forum if any one has one for sale to 'help out' Lisa http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=19503.0 . So a lot of back pedalling and lame excuses all round from Saabcombie aka Albrid-3 on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120728558752&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120728558752&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI).So I have heard of others being on the wrong end of a dodgy Dave deal (now there is a forum name for him.'3D' , 'Dodgy Dave's Deals! lol ) but this one has to rate up there.
Lisa was told there was a second frame that he purchased from the U.S. on it's way and thought that was it and that was his mistake. He then asked me where he could get a second frame. He has now got a wanted ad on here.
I would also assume there are grounds for legal action here as well?
When things like this happen and I then say something about it such as the twin pipe 360 saga, even I have to wonder if it's me as I AM the common denominator. The reality ( for me) is that I have done a shit load of deals and the law of averages says you will have a small amount of sour ones. All has ended well for Dad and I this time (not for Lisa as she now doesn't have a frame). This is more of a 'buyer beware' as opposed to 'I got ripped'. And if it helps to put Dave on the straight and narrow then that would be a good thing. Dave you are well known as a dodgy dealer and you are not smart enough to get your lies straight, so its time to rethink the way you conduct yourself as this is a small community. The few people that I have told before posting here have given me some of your dodgy deals in detail that you have done. 'Nuff said.
Better than 'Days Of Our Lives'...
Cheers, Brad.
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Glad it worked out for you.
yeah Dave is one of kind and I'm not to surprised by your story just about anyone who dealt with Dave has a story.
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That's a bummer, Brian and Lisa are two of the nicest people you could hope to meet.
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<snip>
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Brad's posted his story and included all the facts as he understands them.
Further unsubtantiated allegations/rumours aren't on. This thread has the potential to go really bad, so please leave it alone.
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It's disappointing in this small tightly knit vmx community to hear stories like Brad's especially when everyone knows everyone.
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Graeme not allegations i was there
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I think we all get it brab and aappreciate the update, and yes i have had a deal that went weird but not to that extreme from Dave. But on the good side it all workd out and at least you got your frame. Better than you never getting it back.
point taken we will all check the details in the future.
thanks for the post.
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Regardless of how the frame arrived at your door, you can see that the Crimes Act 1958 is quite clear about what constitutes theft. If someone for example recieved a frame and sold it on, knowing full well that they did not have legal entitlement.... finally as this matter has been settled albeit with a lot of hassle nothing much is to gained, it is worth noting that reagrdless of whether you buy on ebay, ship to the wrong address or have something double sold on you, you do have a right of recourse.
Appropriation - defined at s.73(4) of the Crimes Act 1958 as the assumption of any of the owners rights. It does not have be all the owner's rights, as long as at least one right has been assumed(Stein v Henshall). If the owner gave their consent to the appropriation there cannot be an appropriation(Baruday v R). However, if this consent is obtained by deception, this consent is vitiated.
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Bit hard to call someone a thief when his dad has the frame and the people who he sold the frame to have been compensated. :-[
I'd call it liabless....
No, regardless of how things finally worked out, the legal point is that you 'knowingly' assumed title to goods you have no title to..... you stole them. Burden of proof is simply that you have to establish the party acted knowingly in reselling on ebay.
Under the law what should have happened, your obligation, is the wrong delivery should have been reported to the sender, the legal right you have is then a realistic charge for storage up to the value of the goods, then you can apply for ownership in lieu of storage if the sender takes no action.
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I do not know this person or have had any dealings with him, but I would like to ask the following question.
Is he selling a size 32 No Fear Mx Pants?
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Knowing the law is a problem?
Getting back to Brad's original post, the fact that "it all worked out in the end" would make legal action pretty fruitless from here.
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I am so discussed to think 09o could do this to me, and l had been in contact with the seller in USA that day and replied to his email that he sent me, and he was gratefull and very please with the way l handle it, and the truth is that l thought the frame was mine, l would never do anything in a deceitful way for my own gain, it was an innocent mistake and l have fixed, and that should had been the end of it. Goodbye to VMX.
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How did you think it was yours? Are you in the habit of getting parcels you haven't paid for and selling them for a nice little profit? You need to look up the word truth in the dictionary.
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Getting back to Brad's original post, the fact that "it all worked out in the end" would make legal action pretty fruitless from here.
Too true, there is no real need to persue the issue. Besides cost usually makes it not worthwhile. Most of the time you buy at your own risk as unless it is a complete bike, as Ross so kindly pointed out you will have to have good paperwork to prove what happened.
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I do not know this person or have had any dealings with him, but I would like to ask the following question.
Is he selling a size 32 No Fear Mx Pants?
now thats funny...........
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The frame was offered to me at the time when l was buying the twinport pipe, l wanted a cz frame for my jawa, also l was looking at buying a cz frame from another seller over their, and l had no contact detail from russell or anybody. Anyway l am so discussed in you 090, the only dealings that l had with freakshow at the time when he bought a part of me and paid for it twice, ??? and he was refund. I just wish to say this is the straw that broke the camels back, a sport that l thought highly of for any years has just ended, l am not dodgy and anyway. Good bye.
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The frame was offered to me at the time when l was buying the twinport pipe, l wanted a cz frame for my jawa, also l was looking at buying a cz frame from another seller over their, and l had no contact detail from anybody.
Well see you need to have a walk to the bathroom and have a good look at yourself in the mirror.
Okay first, you would not have been offered a frame from the ebay seller as he does not own any cz parts. He was selling them for a friend. I had to chase the owner of the pipes to find out what else he had and he doesn't use ebay, so that is a lie. Second, wanting a frame and purchasing a frame with money are two worlds apart. Do you wish for things and they appear? Thirdly, you had a senders details on the frame, you could have started there and on the forum here as well. Do you think you are dealing with 2 year olds with your lame excuses?
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090, you are so nasty, you are different person,when you are on the phone. :'(
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Nasty would be calling you names. I am stating facts. Now it's time to fess up and change your ways.
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And why would I be nasty to you on the phone when a friend was out of pocket at that stage to the tune of approx. $500 for a frame that wasn't yours to sell?
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Brad, after some checking it looks like your frame was sent to the
wrong person. There is another guy in Australia who purchased a set of
360 twinpipe exhausts from Russell on Ebay. When the time came to ship
the frame Russell got you two confused and sent the frame to David Alsop in Victoria.
Russel wrote to David last night and got a response this morning saying that the frame was there and that he called you to let you know the deal. He said he would get the frame to you.
VERY sorry for the screw up.
As for the shift shaft, that was invoiced and sent to Les on invoice #506382 on April 10th. I did not add this to your bill so I sent it to Les so he could supply it to you.
Sorry again for the mistake R B
This is the last email I got from the Guy I bought it off. As you can read, Dave says that he has the frame and will let me know the deal.It was two states away.
Are you still typing Dave? Are you man enough to come clean or are you going to slink away?
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I paid lisa back $550, you have no right in spreading this on the forum, I made a mistake and it has be fixed end of story.
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brad did he contact you about sending the frame to you or at least discuss it or just sell it
Who?
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Dave didn't know the real owner at the time. It was addressed to him. It never had my name on the frame. That was a mistake at the other end. It wasn't until the guy in the US worked out his mistake and told Dave who the owner was did he know. Dave should have got in contact with the sender. That is where dishonesty kicked in.
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I paid lisa back $550, you have no right in spreading this on the forum, I made a mistake and it has be fixed end of story.
Yes you paid it back. How was Lisa at the news? Was she happy about it? I heard she tore you another one.
I accidentally sent John Boag a new carby and Les Richters a set of footpegs instead of the other way around. John looked who the sender was, found my number and contacted me and it was sorted. That is what honest people do.
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He had sold it weeks before . It was already in Lisa's possession. So he sold a frame that turned up on his door step, then a few weeks later was told a frame was sent to him by mistake, then he had to start back peddling from then on to try as hard as he could to save face by reimbursing Lisa and contacting me. Because at the end of the day, he had stolen and profited from something that wasn't his.
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Dave didn't know the real owner at the time. It was addressed to him.
This is similar to having the bank accidently transfer money into your account, just because it is addressed to you doesn't mean you own it, the test of most sections of the Crimes Act is, 'given the circumstance would any reasonable person assume ownership'. This assumption of ownership would normally be supported by the components of a contract/
Appropriation - defined at s.73(4) of the Crimes Act 1958 as the assumption of any of the owners rights
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Flux, when l got the email from Russell from USA, I rang 090 straight away and told him and Lisa rang me and was very disappointed, and l understood, and l was very sorry about what l had done and l made it up to her by refunding the amount and freight. And prior to all of this l have set out to help her fine sidepipe bike or parts.
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The reason I felt compelled to put this up on the forum was that there are quite a lot of stories similar to this that your name is in as well Dave. That is why I named the thread a wake up call. Time to get yourself in order and dust off you conscience and start using it. It was more than a bad judgement call on your part, it was criminal.
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Dave didn't know the real owner at the time. It was addressed to him.
This is similar to having the bank accidently transfer money into your account, just because it is addressed to you doesn't mean you own it, the test of most sections of the Crimes Act is, 'given the circumstance would any reasonable person assume ownership'. This assumption of ownership would normally be supported by the components of a contract/
Appropriation - defined at s.73(4) of the Crimes Act 1958 as the assumption of any of the owners rights
This reply is aimed purley at Marc FXs post and does not refer to the original thread in anyway , i will keep my opinion about that to myself .
So just out of curiosity say somone puts somthing , a secondhand stove for example on my door step on my property and i take it to the scrap dealer and get $10.00 for it, then somone turns up and says hey that was mine, legaly do i
A. owe them the $10.00
B. owe them a stove
C. give them an account for disposing of their rubbish
D.???
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Dave didn't know the real owner at the time. It was addressed to him.
This is similar to having the bank accidently transfer money into your account, just because it is addressed to you doesn't mean you own it, the test of most sections of the Crimes Act is, 'given the circumstance would any reasonable person assume ownership'. This assumption of ownership would normally be supported by the components of a contract/
Appropriation - defined at s.73(4) of the Crimes Act 1958 as the assumption of any of the owners rights
This reply is aimed purley at Marc FXs post and does not refer to the original thread in anyway , i will keep my opinion about that to myself .
So just out of curiosity say somone puts somthing , a secondhand stove for example on my door step on my property and i take it to the scrap dealer and get $10.00 for it, then somone turns up and says hey that was mine, legaly do i
A. owe them the $10.00
B. owe them a stove
C. give them an account for disposing of their rubbish
D.???
I for one would be asking them the question.
Was the No Fear Mx Pants size 32 in the stove
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A good point was just raised. I wonder how it would have ended up if it wasn't Lisa. Just some random guy. Bet he would have said too bad. The frame cost the old boy more than $550 from the U.S. with postage as well.
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So just out of curiosity say somone puts somthing , a secondhand stove for example on my door step on my property and i take it to the scrap dealer and get $10.00 for it, then somone turns up and says hey that was mine, legaly do i
A. owe them the $10.00
B. owe them a stove
C. give them an account for disposing of their rubbish
D.???
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Hey Bill, I guess in Taupo, depends of whether the stove is still burning when they put it against your door.
But actually you have no right to sell it even though it is on your property. You have the right to inform the Police or the Council of illegal dumping on your property, the Council and Police then have to find the guilty party and retrieve the property. OR you can dump it back on your verge thereby it becomes the Council's property. People have actually been done for stealing from the Council scavenging off front verges during clean ups. OF course you are totally at liberty to accumulate storage charges against the dumper which may be an easier way of getting your $10.
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So just out of curiosity say somone puts somthing , a secondhand stove for example on my door step on my property and i take it to the scrap dealer and get $10.00 for it, then somone turns up and says hey that was mine, legaly do i
A. owe them the $10.00
B. owe them a stove
C. give them an account for disposing of their rubbish
D.???
Hey Bill, I guess in Taupo, depends of whether the stove is still burning when they put it against your door.
But actually you have no right to sell it even though it is on your property. You have the right to inform the Police or the Council of illegal dumping on your property, the Council and Police then have to find the guilty party and retrieve the property. OR you can dump it back on your verge thereby it becomes the Council's property. People have actually been done for stealing from the Council scavenging off front verges during clean ups. OF course you are totally at liberty to accumulate storage charges against the dumper which may be an easier way of getting your $10.
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Mark you make a good legal standpoint and action recourse, but my friend you fail to address the No Fear Size 32 MX Pants issue in this response
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Dave doesn't see that he done anything wrong, Dave never thinks he's done anything wrong and that is the way he will stay till death try to educated him is a waste of time.
Highly entertaining for us thou , keep up the good work.
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I think I will lock this now unless Dave has some revelation that hasn't been aired. I hope Dave takes this as it was intended. A wake up call. An intervention if you will. Sooo many people talk about a bad deal with you Dave, as far back as 1990. Unfortunately I truly don't think you think you have done anything wrong. PM me if you want to add to this thread and I will unlock it.
Ha, you took the words straight out of my mouth Slakewell.
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Freakshows post
you bastard you locked it befor ei could post...
KTM, those god forsaken pirtate pants size 32 and a 1/2 where in the stove and thats why it was burning............
There's only one Cyber bully..... and he is a shocker
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Thought I'd put this in here with all the other negative stuff.
Well it seems at the end of the day this is a bit too much for some to swallow which has spawn the thread 'remember how this used to be'. Seems that I have over stepped an invisible boundary where you can talk about someone behind their back all day long but don't dare put it on the net. Seems I don't suit this type of media 'cause if you are a crook, you are a crook, in my eyes. I do consider myself a positive person and pretty well straight up, you know what you are getting.
I must ask rhetorically, how would you feel if a friend bought a bike and was on the wrong end of a deal when you knew the seller was renown for doing dodgy deals? I for one would feel frustrated that if I had of known of the pending deal, I would have said to them to stay well clear of that particular person. That was the purpose of this thread.
I had more ramblings but I had an intervention of my own and it was suggested I shut up. Fair call.
I will watch from the side lines for a while so I can't reply to topics as I can't seem to do it otherwise. It will give me more time to get both feet out I 'spose.