OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Vintage Track => Topic started by: gerpster on February 16, 2008, 04:15:39 pm
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Ok spent most of today getting the TS sorted..see the latest pic attached. This was a farm bike with only 7000kms on it but it was filthy and covered in crap and partly disassembled. The PO had "carby problems" and sure enough despite my best efforts the carby still aint right....bummer!!! >:(
Decided to stick with the current trials tyres as they hold air ok and aren't too bad after all when cleaned up a bit...hopefully they will do for a few practice sessions.
But I now may need a TS185 carby....hmmmm..can anyone help??? Will pay...will post in the wanted section too.... :-\
Cheers....
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Ok all good now...3rd time lucky and she is screamin..carby all fixed...yahooo!!!!!
Hope the neighbours don't mind a 2 stroke this late!! ;) Just had to do a test run.... ;D
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I had a lot of dramas with my TS185ER carbie, I soaked it in fresh thinners and fitted one of these...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUZUKI-TS185-DS250-KEYSTER-CARB-KIT-1980-1981_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em122QQcategoryZ35597QQihZ017QQitemZ270211263856QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD2V
This will liven it up too...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150214898387&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005
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Hey noice pipe....shame I can't afford it but wouldn't it be wasted on a TS185? Or are they not as bad as I think?? ???
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Three restrictions on TS185ER's
1, CDI is rev limited to about 7500 under load (replace with RM125 79/80)
2, The exhaust and muffler (mostly exhaust)
3, Porting, especially the intake side which is further restricted by the tiny strangled airbox
(open up the port to the reed cage and fit aftermarket PE250 reeds with no stoppers)
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Good onya Greg, not a bad looking TS ya have there, your invitation to join Suzuki Central and The Mighty TS Men will be forwarded shortly 8)
That eBay pipe wouldn't fit the ER model as claimed anyway..for a start they are centre port exhaust and the pipe is for the early sideport single downtube frame. Apparently the stock pipe isn't 'too bad' CG but obviously could be improved. The gun mod I've been told by a very reliable source is remove 1 third of the flywheel weight, shorten the magnet screws, bolt her back together and it'll go like a cut snake without affecting reliability. ;)
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Hey Chris have a closer look at that pipe ??? its clearly for the center port engine, the mounts are a dead give away too
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I'll be starting a 185 project soon. Anyone got the gearbox ratio's????.
I might start a blow by blow build up thread, Doc the pipes are shite, the flywheel is massive but that's not a bad thing,power reed can be fixed, airbox belongs in the skip.The real restriction is the exhaust port which I have some big plans for ;D
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I'll be starting a 185 project soon. Anyone got the gearbox ratio's????.
Heres what I gave Pokey for the early 185, but the ER still uses the same output shaft and the input shaft is only shorter on the clutch hub end so all gears will fit.
Hey pokey, heres a breakdown of my TS/TM185 project gearbox
(YES!! you inspired it )
RM125S straight-cut primary and basket 18t-61t (19t-61t stock185)
stock 185 input and output shafts
with 1st drive (14t stock shaft)
2nd drive (17t from tm/rm125 (16t stock185))
3rd drive (20t stock 185)
4th drive (22t from tm/rm125 (23t stock185))
5th drive (25t stock 185)
1st driven (30t from tm/rm125(33t stock 185))
2nd driven (27t from tm/rm125(29t stock 185))
3rd driven (25t stock 185)
4th driven (23t stock 185)
5th driven (21t from tm/rm125(20t stock 185))
This is what is going into my bottom end as the RM basket gets 2 extra plates and still fits inside the clutch cover, which is a 1976
type that looks the same as the TM ones. The engine is going into a TM 125 chassis that I picked up at the swapmeet this year
I have good o.e.m forks, tank, seat, wheels and a RM125S ignition to go in it, I'll make my own pipe and only mildly port the cylinder. I will also shave a few mm of the bottom of the piston skirt to increase the intake port timing (you have to take 5mm of the bottom of ts125 pistons to use them in TM125's) so I will start small and work my way up from there. I'll post some pics when I have more than a pile of bits to take pictures of.
I intend my TS/TM to look as close to stock as possible in the hope no one will notice
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Ok so if I ditch the airbox what's the best alternative....pod filter...unifilter....???? ???
Just trying to keep it simple at the moment... ;)
Cheers..
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sounds good. looks like i will have to put mine back together. so the RM 125 ignition is definitly the go then? any one got one of those for sale? what about a PE 175 CDI. i think im on the hunt for a 1980 RM 125 CDI now but i dont know what buyin used ones is like, prefer a nos
cyclegod, does that give the bike longer legs in top gear? i was wanting to put a higher fith gear ratio im my 185 for longer legs but i couldnt find anthing. can you tell me what yr TM those ratios are from and part number of the cogs?
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whats the go with that pipe will it fit centre port or not? i reckon i want it!
i got another air box cover and drilled about half a dozen 1inch holes it it and put some white brothers air box vents in. i also removed the intake snorkel and run a unifiter on stock cage
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If you look at the photos of the pipe you can see that the mounts are in the correct position for the center port TS/DS/TF185 77-on
As for the gears, well they are from TM125 all years and 1975 RM 125 (http://www.alpha-sports.com/suzuki_parts.htm) and give a close ratio box so longer legs is just a matter of setting the final ratio right 12/39(3.25) is standard,
factory options at max would be 14/37 (2.64)
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so you have geared it down. ive mucked around with final ratios but i want to change just the 5th combo. to make it higher i need a larger drive gear and smaller driven gear. thats right isnt it? that pipe is tempting but im not sure if my side number plate will fit over it as the ER pipe is kind of flat. now when i look at it the header part of that pipe is totally different to mine. i cant see how it would fit. the front loop doesnt bend in the right direction as the standard pipe, unless its made to be different like that. my stock pipe comes out the barrel and then turns out to the right and then hooks around and up under the tank. that one looks like it has no turn out to the right and it looks like it goes straight up
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so you have geared it down. ive mucked around with final ratios but i want to change just the 5th combo. to make it higher i need a larger drive gear and smaller driven gear. thats right isnt it? that pipe is tempting but im not sure if my side number plate will fit over it as the ER pipe is kind of flat. now when i look at it the header part of that pipe is totally different to mine. i cant see how it would fit. the front loop doesnt bend in the right direction as the standard pipe, unless its made to be different like that. my stock pipe comes out the barrel and then turns out to the right and then hooks around and up under the tank. that one looks like it has no turn out to the right and it looks like it goes straight up
Only the stock pipe can be used if you want to fit a standard ER185 side cover or alternately mount an oval plate below muffler/pipe position (ala early huskies) J&R pipes tend to NOT follow the stock shape at the header but it looks to me like it would fit fine (I saw this pipe for sale before the current seller bought it and it had better photos including one of it on a bike)
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can you sent me the link of old listing if you have it in your internet history? better photos would be good.
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Listings only last 3 months and that pipe was listed at least six months ago :(
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i really want to keep the stock side plates so i guess that pipe is a no go, so that means i have to keep the stock pipe. i dont know anyone who would be making modern type chambers for TS's. if there was i could have one made that still alllowed the side cover to be used but a custom would be very expensivbe i imagine? i dont really know what a pipe would cost to have made
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Greg, go a good pod filter for now but in dusty or extreme wet conditions you'd be best served with a shroud or box of some type to keep it half clean. Not only that, these motors seem to respond better drawing from still air. I found the ER gear ratios pretty close to right excepting they too suffer the same fate as the TM early RM in having only 5 cogs to play with. They simply run out of puff a little too soon. With a fresh top end if your TS doesn't pull the front wheel off the ground 1st thru 3rd under hard acceleration on bitumen in stock trim then she's a little down on power. I've had a few of these reed valved models and they all went exceptionally well and quite snappy after rebuilds.
CG, that pipe does look like centre port alright but still the ad is very misleading on the models it suits. I'd be going a down pipe on an early model and one could seriously think of doing the same on an ER and thus retaining the sidecovers ;) I slipped Pokey a pair of TM125 gear clusters but still the problem exists in the early model of the pressed gear spinning on the imput shaft when too much HP is applied. Have heard very little success in fixing this issue, even after pinning and welding. :-\ I like the idea of the TM185, being a small bloke I find even the TM250 feels too heavy and I'd surely get a 185 around just as quick (slow) if not quicker (a bit faster than slow) and not need an oxygen bottle after the fact ;D
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Pipe decision is pretty simple, keep the standard side plate, airbox, pipe, etc or throw it away and put a proper efficient pipe on there.I'll put a few pics up whe we start the build, I'll have a gearbox to look at soon and welding the gear on will make the problem worse. I would think nickel bronze would be much better, silver solder would be worth a look because of it's low melting point.
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the welding was only spot welding Loz and used as a last resort..it failed too..I believe if it was keyed like the primary drive gear this could be the end of problem..and down pipes on everything! I used to hate em' once and only now do I see the beauty ;D
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Thanks Doc.
Yeh my old man (mechanic) always reckon if ya keeping it stock then don't mess with what the manufacturer has come up with..they get to do more research than us!!! (but yes they still can produce crap sometimes...... :) ))) So the stock air box is back on minus the snorkel and a new filter. It is running better but the carby is still playing up....hmmmm...needs more work.... ::)
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Greg I agree with your old man 'leave it stock' but, you are allowed to tidy up what the factory doesn't. Fit some decent reeds, match up all ports and gaskets and drill a few more or enlarge the inlet hole in the airbox. Removing that dorky snorkel is a good start.
I 'may' have a surplus ER carb here, will need to look, if all else fails I can send it down, try it, see if it fixes the problem and then take it from there..if by chance it's not surplus you are still welcome to try if you wish to eliminate the problem but you'd have to pay the postage both ways which is half the price of another carb anyway :-\
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Sorry to diappoint but a tuned engined needs plenty of air especially something that pulling some rpm.EG and RGV 250 running standard airbox filter runs 280 left and 270 right mains. With 2 X 30mm holes it's up to 320 / 310 and no lid and filter it's (depnding on tune) around 420-400 left and 370-390 right. Adds all top end on the dyno.
OOPs I forgot about the pip Doc :-\
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Thanks Doc.
Yeh my old man (mechanic) always reckon if ya keeping it stock then don't mess with what the manufacturer has come up with..they get to do more research than us!!! (but yes they still can produce crap sometimes...... :) ))) So the stock air box is back on minus the snorkel and a new filter. It is running better but the carby is still playing up....hmmmm...needs more work.... ::)
One thing I discovered about the stock ER carb is that there is a small "ridge" on the needle retaining plate that makes the needle kink forward (or back depending on which way up the plate is fitted) and this will of course wear the needle jet opening when the needle slides up and down in it. After I sanded the plate flat and put the keyster carb kit in jetting was restored to excellent
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Thanks for the offer Doc but will stick with it for now and see how I go. Have ordered a carb kit from Sirius so if all else fails will put this in when it arrives.
Yeh have noticed that the carb needle tends to want to go skew a bit so will look into that too.
I'm sure all jets and passages are clear and float level seems ok. :-\
Will keep at it.... ::)
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But this is a TS185 is in standard trim Loz, high RPM and airfilters sucking their brains out won't happen until something is done to enhance the motor. I ran a pod type on my TS and it made absolutely no difference except the induction noise was quadrupled. I took this bike to Tivoli but the thick dust choked the cleaner in about 3 laps and it also allowed this dust to enter my nice fresh motor. Does it not make sense an engine would draw air easier/faster from a still air source rather than air that is blowing past at 40mph in the opposite direction? Would this not make the dyno figures inaccurate under actual conditions? I've always found my RM's ran better under actual riding conditions if I retained the airbox rather than just fitting a pod. My motors are stock. A pod filter contained within an airbox works well also. I still think build the bike standard, get it working how it should, ride it and if you can ride it flat out everywhere and feel more power would be the savior then go looking for more power..extra HP won't make the bike any easier to ride until the rest is working properly ;) this is just the way I think and others no doubt have far differing opinions but it seems to have worked for me ;)
no worries with the pipe Loz and Mick the inner rear arrived yesterday. thanks
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But this is a TS185 is in standard trim Loz, high RPM and airfilters sucking their brains out won't happen until something is done to enhance the motor. I ran a pod type on my TS and it made absolutely no difference except the induction noise was quadrupled. I took this bike to Tivoli but the thick dust choked the cleaner in about 3 laps and it also allowed this dust to enter my nice fresh motor. Does it not make sense an engine would draw air easier/faster from a still air source rather than air that is blowing past at 40mph in the opposite direction? Would this not make the dyno figures inaccurate under actual conditions? I've always found my RM's ran better under actual riding conditions if I retained the airbox rather than just fitting a pod. My motors are stock. A pod filter contained within an airbox works well also. I still think build the bike standard, get it working how it should, ride it and if you can ride it flat out everywhere and feel more power would be the savior then go looking for more power..extra HP won't make the bike any easier to ride until the rest is working properly ;) this is just the way I think and others no doubt have far differing opinions but it seems to have worked for me ;)
no worries with the pipe Loz and Mick the inner rear arrived yesterday. thanks
As always Chris, some sensible advice "get it going good before getting it going fast"
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Not disputing if they run better with the airbox as 99% of engines will.Just when you have to small an airbox or restictions upstream of the carb it requires a few work arounds. More about the amount available to draw on, bigger is better.As with the RGV it would have 20lt airbox,I would have to check but would be 7-8lt min.A 185 in standard nick will make those straights awful long.................
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CG, I just don't see the need to jump in the deep end before a wheel has been spun in angst :) When things go wrong it takes away all the fun :'(
Greg for dirt track on a TS185 I'd be going up a tooth (2 if it fits) or down 4 or so on the rear and probably run a B9es plug..maybe take a few front sprockets with me to play with. If it peak revs before the end of the straight then swap cogs. Peaking in top on a stock TS185 would effectively be at about 100-120kph. It may be best to use only 1st to 4th and forget 5th?
I realize DT is a HP game Loz and there is pleeeeenty that could be done, it just depends what people want/need and this is different for all. I like the stock idea as not only is it usually the most cost effective but it also (99%) brings reliability, reliability brings ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Yes this is just for fun and an initial run at DT. If I can get it going good as stock and see how she goes then maybe I can think about some go fast(er) mods but they are probably not worth the trouble on a little 185. So the plan is to have fun on the 185, learn lots and then maybe fix up my PE250 if things get serious.... ;)
have gone down a tooth to 11 on the front and stock 39 rear as I can't see myself getting near 5th gear on the ACT circuit...then again never done it so time will tell....
Currently has the stock plug .... BP7ES. Should I be going to an 8ES. Is a 9ES gonna be too cold???? ???
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ya sound pretty switched on Greg, probably haven't told you anything you don't already know but maybe take a couple of plugs and have a looky as the day progresses, an 8 should be fine if they come with a 7 as standard. The BP7ES has protruding electrode from memory and is not the correct plug. the plug should is a plain B7ES or B8ES. Running at top end may require dropping the needle clip a notch. Better to have it a little rich and fluffy down low rather than lean out up top and go bang :o but then :-\ I guess most traily's do come pretty rich and fluffly from the factory though so maybe just ride and see is the best advice :)
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yeh i thought the same re the projection plug but both Mr haynes and Mr NGK specify the BP for the later model TS185s....but it would probably do ok on the 'normal' plugs i imagine....and cheaper too!! ;)
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Your a cheeky one Doc ;D
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what should be the top speed on a ER model?
my specs for my 1980 model say BP7ES. are you saying its wrong? why? i know some models had the BP and some had the B.
i want to see if i can fit a 30 or 32 mm RM 100/125 N/T carby but i got find out the width and height first to see if it will fit. i dont think aftermarket 32mm mikunis fit.
i got to fix my bottom end noise first. Greg does your trans/clutch make a rattly sort of noise at low revs that goes away with the clutch pullled in?
i replaced the bearing behind the clutch that has the pressed in gear. it was a reallly tight fit and i cant see it ever slipping. i only used a SKF but since ive got it apart im gonna fit a new suzuki bearing. i will also take out my right side crank bearing as im not sure it has the proper clearance. i think it should be a C3 spec, so to be safe i will get a genuine suzuki bearing there too.
thing that has me confused is the arrangment of the washers and the flat needle rolller bearing on the input shaft. all my manuals and parts book show different things.
has any one got a good clutch basket? mine is loose in the rubbers so im wondering if thats the cause of my noise.
13 T on the front is as big as you can go with a O or X ring chain.
theres no way i would run anything other than the stock air box and aftermarket filter. too much dust gets in with out a proper air box.
this has got me enthused to get mine back together, i just gotta get a bit more time. it will put my PE's on hold though, thats the only bad point
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Naaah no clutch rattle at all...matter of fact the clutch feels really good :-\ ....which is pretty amazing really as i suspect the bike had been sitting collecting mouse droppings, dust and crap for a long while before I got it!!! Surprised that the clutch plates were not bonded either...hmmm. Fresh oil and it seems happy so far.....(only had 200ml of oil in it but what came out was pretty good....now has the full 700ml of good stuff). Have not really given it a good go yet so will find out at DT practice on March 2nd how things will go. ;)
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Well just about all set. It was running a bit lean.....book says 1.25 turns out for the air screw but i am finding .75-1 about right...probably due to some wear in the carby maybe (?????). Seems happy to be a bit rich...Anyway she hoons around the yard ok!! ::)
Here's the latest piccy...gotta remove the side stand and loosen tension on the chain a bit and lube... :)
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Lozza..me cheeky? not on your life!!..well..maybe just a little! ;)
not sure what the manual says for the plug Leith as I've never had one but all my TS'ers up to the 84 model all had a good ol' B7 or B8 fitted. I don't think it would really matter but I'll stick to them. The clutch basket I believe is the same item on all TS185's from '71 on.
Greg, very interested to hear how it goes on March 2nd ;)
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fix up my PE250 if things get serious.... ;)
Go on and fix up the PE. Then you can race me and my IT250D.
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Go on and fix up the PE. Then you can race me and my IT250D.
As one of the few people who knows both of you, I can confiently say that you're way crazier than Greg! :)
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Hahahaha....yeh well the PE is next if I can get around the track on the little 185 OK without injurin meself!!! :D
I know you have a LOT more experience than me Mark so take it easy OK?? ;)
I did decide that dirt track was going to be a lot more fun (and more doable and closer to home) than the pcra dream I gave up on a few years back.
Also..my order arrived today from Perth (of all places)....MDS RC4 helmet, Oneal top and Fox socks for a good price and with free shipping!! All internet specials from Motorcyclemart, who I can say did a good job, got the order right, and shipped it in good time (and I have no interest in the site or the shop). ;D
So, got bike, got gear.....lookin forward to this Sunday!! :o
Nathan - sorry missed your call...got it today...oops.. :-[ Are you coming out for a bash this Sunday???
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Hmmm... OK, I wasn't going to ride the TM again till I'd finished working it for more go, but maybe I'll bring it out Sunday for a bit of ride around and to say G'day.
Mind you, I have all the go-fast bits on their way so the TM "CR-killer" isn't far off either!!
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OK sounds great...I'll start a new thread and see if we can get an old school dirt track practice bash happenin!!! ;D
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I'll come out on the TDR even if I haven't got the IT going.
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Hi Graeme, good your coming on sunday, on the TM, I will have to watch out for those good bits on the TM, cant have a yellow one going past a silver one!!!
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Well my first go at DT and is was FUN...but yeh I was holding up traffic I think being a total newbie but we all seemed to get around OK.
The TS went well when it was in the power band. Still did not want to start happily, idle was crap and was also bogging a bit a high revs..I think maybe a carby kit may help. The operator needs more practice too but by session 3 things were gettin a bit better!! :-[ Hoonin up the hill and down that straight was great stuff!! :)
Thanks to Pat and Graeme for a great day!!!
I have an XL500 that runs like a dream hiding in the shed too so I'm now tempted to get it out for a go as well....great bikes too and a 4 stroke may suit me a bit better - being more used to road bikes etc. ::)
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Yep, it was fun alright, and good to see you out there Greg. Given how fast I've seen blokes ride those XL500s, I reckon you should focus on getting that on the track. Keep the TS for more low key things like CD5 and go 4-stroke for your racing fun!
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the XL would be fun Greg, more rideable and reliable, wont take much to get used to on DT,
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Some Dt track that are round, dont like no wheel spin bikes, so you end up ridding around like a pee wee 50 all upright and uptight, kinda spoils any fun.
YOu need at least enough power so you scare yourself when you run in fast and need to tip it over inot a turn and it starts to drift.
Whatever that bike is for you - ride it, you grow into it, anything less and your interest will turn into riding around your back garden.
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You need at least enough power so you scare yourself when you run in fast and need to tip it over into a turn and it starts to drift.
Whatever that bike is for you - ride it, you grow into it, anything less and your interest will turn into riding around your back garden.
Well said. I totally agree.
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ummm,i can scare myself pretty good with no power!! ::),drift, & run wide thats me down pat ;D,see all at coffs,cheers :P
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I'll tell you what happens when you have a little extra power on tap..you punch a hole straight through the tyre wall just after the entry to turn 1 climaxing in a wonderfully spectacular Superman impersonation in front of all the totally awestruck little kiddies :o whoa! big ooops!..but I did replace the tyres after re-inflating my lungs :D did this twice before I learned that tyres although they are rubber really are quite solid when stacked 2 rows deep ::) the real reason for all this nastiness happening was my brand spanking new helmet but I wouldn't give Murphy the satisfaction and admit to that 8)
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I saw something new-to me anyway -at the Jack Hogg.The Slider gang I was pitted with had a pod filter with their equivalent of a filter skin-It was a K&N skin/sock that tied over the standard K&N filter pod this fella was running.He said it was good for dusty days-it was more of a nylon than foam thing and was a wash and wear item-I hadn't seen one before but thought it was worth mentioning for you boxless racers. He said it trapped a lot of crap judging by what came out of it when he washed it.