OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Spaniards (Bultaco, Ossa, Montesa etc) => Topic started by: dutchtwinshock on January 27, 2011, 11:33:44 am
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i was looking for a new monty 360 conrod kit .
I was asking myself if someone ever found a altanativ conrod witch also fits?
I saw that a honda cr250 conrod has almost the same dimensions.Accidental ecactly the same used in the cota 314
1 mm longer(125mm) and has 2mm thicker big end as the original 360 conrod.small end is the same
would possible drilling bigger holes and a thicker base gasket.
A 1978-84 ktm 250 conrod should be also fitting
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I am pretty sure Jared (SW Montesa) can help you out or John (RM Montesa) and if not try here
http://www.kevinbreedonracing.co.uk/products_conrods.asp
I have had excellent service from all of them
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Some else might like to confirm this but I think the 250/360 Cappra rod is the same. The different stroke comes from different big end positioning on the crank (longer stroke).
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The different stroke comes from different big end positioning on the crank (longer stroke).
Correctomundo Graeme...The biggest phurphy around is the belief that rod length has anything to do with the stroke of an engine. Simply put, the stroke's determined by the crank throw or as you say, the positioning of the crank pin on the flywheel. I know it's a sway away from the subject but the rod/stroke thing really annoys me. ::)
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i asked Kevin breedom already, he had for the 360 only a special competition conrod (italkit),very expensive one (260 pound)witch also need a special piston.
Together with him i came along that ktm 250 conrod witch is exactly the same as the montesa 360 conrod.
I saw one at solomontesa..... but ones i waited 4 month for a sprocket!!!! those chauvinistic spanisch don`t want parts go out the country.
from Jared i received some parts ,very good correct handling!!
i forgot to thank jared for that; Jared thanks!!
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Some else might like to confirm this but I think the 250/360 Cappra rod is the same. The different stroke comes from different big end positioning on the crank (longer stroke).
yes the 250VB/VE/360 rods are the same (124mm)the 250VF/VG went back to 116mm same as the older 250 (maybe i am wrong)
but to achieve the stroke for the 414 they put the bigend hole to the limmits isn`t?
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i asked Kevin breedom already, he had for the 360 only a special competition conrod (italkit),very expensive one (260 pound)witch also need a special piston.
Together with him i came along that ktm 250 conrod witch is exactly the same as the montesa 360 conrod.
Which Kattie rod kit?
KTM 250cc T/Stroke W/Cooled Model 84 (Comp) 125 22 29 16 22 60 18x22x25 22x29x16 BC2043S T/O £75.79
Montesa 360 Special Competition Rod 124 22 28 16 22 64.4 18x22x22 22x28x16 BC5098R T/O £206.04
.... those chauvinistic spanisch don`t want parts go out the country.
I've had the same impression during my attempts to deal with them :-\ - and then the cost of postage became a 'deal killer' :(
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I receved this from Kevin Breedom:
"Hello Marten, the BC 2045 Ktm rod rod would fit very well with a thicker base gasket"
the Bc 2045 is another one from a 1978 ktm 250 .
you see the bigend side is 29 against 28 from the monty rod.
strange enough on the pdf from rectivicados bellavista stands a montesa 360 rod with a big end hole 29mm
i must searging for the link
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I receved this from Kevin Breedom:
"Hello Marten, the BC 2045 Ktm rod rod would fit very well with a thicker base gasket"
the Bc 2045 is another one from a 1978 ktm 250 .
you see the bigend side is 29 against 28 from the monty rod.
KTM 400cc T/Stroke (Comp) 125 22 29 16 22 64.5 18x22x25 22x29x16 BC2045 T/O £83.86
Montesa 360 Special Competition Rod 124 22 28 16 22 64.4 18x22x22 22x28x16 BC5098R T/O £206.04
A bit of difference between £83.86 and £206.04 :-\ ::).
Standard piston works with both I take it.
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/OzVMX/conrod_diagram.gif)
The 29 vs 28, which is 'C' is fairly critical i would have thought. You would need a blood big press to get that into a 28mm hole in the web ::) :P.
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I've had the same impression during my attempts to deal with them :-\ - and then the cost of postage became a 'deal killer' :(
[/quote]
My father(dutch) lived there for 20 years and i born there and lived there also 4years.before we came back to the Netherlands
they are extreem chauvinistic there are still some spanisch that believe the sun never goes under/down in Spain because Spain is so big.
THe Armada lost the battle because the ships were to tall
But when Ossa comes this year with a new 250 DFI enduro....I want one!!!
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I receved this from Kevin Breedom:
"Hello Marten, the BC 2045 Ktm rod rod would fit very well with a thicker base gasket"
the Bc 2045 is another one from a 1978 ktm 250 .
you see the bigend side is 29 against 28 from the monty rod.
KTM 400cc T/Stroke (Comp) 125 22 29 16 22 64.5 18x22x25 22x29x16 BC2045 T/O £83.86
Montesa 360 Special Competition Rod 124 22 28 16 22 64.4 18x22x22 22x28x16 BC5098R T/O £206.04
A bit of difference between £83.86 and £206.04 :-\ ::).
Standard piston works with both I take it.
Sorry i was mistaken with ktm 250 it is a 400 indeed
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http://www.rectificados-bellavista.com/BIELAS.PDF
look for BM6660.01001 and this one has C-29mm
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Some else might like to confirm this but I think the 250/360 Cappra rod is the same. The different stroke comes from different big end positioning on the crank (longer stroke).
yes the 250VB/VE/360 rods are the same (124mm)the 250VF/VG went back to 116mm same as the older 250 (maybe i am wrong)
but to achieve the stroke for the 414 they put the bigend hole to the limmits isn`t?
I believe the VB360 and 250 had the same Conrod and stroke. I believe the VB250/360 & VE-VG250 have the same stroke but the VE-VG250 have a shorter rod as pointed out above.
You need to be careful as the conrod thrusts for the Montesa engines are at the little end not the big end like most engines. This can be overcome by machining the crank halves I believe.
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I receved this from Kevin Breedom:
"Hello Marten, the BC 2045 Ktm rod rod would fit very well with a thicker base gasket"
the Bc 2045 is another one from a 1978 ktm 250 .
you see the bigend side is 29 against 28 from the monty rod.
KTM 400cc T/Stroke (Comp) 125 22 29 16 22 64.5 18x22x25 22x29x16 BC2045 T/O £83.86
Montesa 360 Special Competition Rod 124 22 28 16 22 64.4 18x22x22 22x28x16 BC5098R T/O £206.04
A bit of difference between £83.86 and £206.04 :-\ ::).
Standard piston works with both I take it.
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/OzVMX/conrod_diagram.gif)
The 29 vs 28, which is 'C' is fairly critical i would have thought. You would need a blood big press to get that into a 28mm hole in the web ::) :P.
Does the conrod bigend eye dia matter as long as the ID of the bearing and therefore the pin OD are correct? Just asking
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The VB 250/360 and the 414 all use the same rod. Not sure why you
would have to use the special piston if using the Italkit rod kit. I sell the
this rod kit for $225. USD. The main problem I have is that the upper rod
bearing is the incorrect length as used on the VB. Can't seem to find the
correct bearing anywhere.
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I fitted an Italkit Conrod to my VF250 and had the issue with the L/E bearing width. It required a stepped set of thrust washers to be made to allow 0.25 - 0.45mm float in the piston and the same for the L/E bearing. I had them made from very high quality steel which had a lowcoefficient of expansion commonly used in Turbine bolts ;). It has done around 3hrs of racing and when dismantled it was all perfect :)
I also found the same issue with the L/E width among other things when I dismantled my VG414 and had to make stepped thrusts to replace the suspect arrangement that had been installed. Luckily befoire I had tried to run it
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Thrusts at the top or bottom doesn't really matter.Smaller big end eye diameter means has a bearing with more rollers in it which gives a higher redline rpm.
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I use H7 360 rods in mine. I did however have to have some of the case milled out where the edge of the rod went through them (it just touched). I use a KTM small end bearing which is the same size as the standard 414 one.
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I had them made from very high quality steel which had a lowcoefficient of expansion commonly used in Turbine bolts ;).
This bit was just for Ross and it recieved the desired reaction ;D ;D ;D :D :D ::)
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The VB 250/360 and the 414 all use the same rod. Not sure why you
would have to use the special piston if using the Italkit rod kit. I sell the
this rod kit for $225. USD. The main problem I have is that the upper rod
bearing is the incorrect length as used on the VB. Can't seem to find the
correct bearing anywhere.
Sorry i was mistaken it was not a special piston but Keven Breedom told me the italkit competition rod make use off Hoekle barrel type big end.
I don`t know what that is.
The italkitrod you selling is it the DC5098R?
i saw on the partlist that even the cranks vb250(early)-vb360 are the same
Is there is also a relationship between crankwheels diameter and inner or outer flywheel rotor?
Montesa parts are confusing a bit ,its seem the montesa engineers puzzled a bit with a cupple of parts
i gona make a claer parts interference list i will post it soon
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so if the 250 ve-vg used a shorter rod (116mm)
and the vb used the longer rod (124mm)
and they have all the same stroke there must be a change in piston compression hight,or the barrel(liner) hight is changed.
when i look to the italkit piston list ,i see that al va-vg have the same piston . ???
so montesa must have lowered the barrels ve-vg isn`t :-[
thats why the intake tube changed (bend up) otherwise the carburator touched the crankcase ???
now i am even more confuse because i have a 73m14525 ( VE250 ) engine in parts .It has a 124 mm rod .
in fact thats impossible it must be 116mm :o
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There is a mistake in the Italkit catalog. The VA piston is not the same as the VG.
VR, V75 and the VA use one style of piston, VB, VE, VF, VG use another.
The motors that use the short rod (116mm) use a shorter cylinder. They have
one less cooling fin. The crank assembly's for the VB 250 and 360 are the same. 414 looks the same,
but for the location of the crankpin. Flywheel type would be dependant on the type of power delivery
the factory was looking for. All of the Montesa motoplat ignitions will interchange with each other.
Generally the bigger size motors went with a heavier mag, except in the case of Ross's 414 in which he
fitted an internal rotor magneto!
The rod kit I have onhand is BC.5098R
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There is a mistake in the Italkit catalog. The VA piston is not the same as the VG.
VR, V75 and the VA use one style of piston, VB, VE, VF, VG use another.
The motors that use the short rod (116mm) use a shorter cylinder. They have
one less cooling fin. The crank assembly's for the VB 250 and 360 are the same. 414 looks the same,
but for the location of the crankpin. Flywheel type would be dependant on the type of power delivery
the factory was looking for. All of the Montesa motoplat ignitions will interchange with each other.
Generally the bigger size motors went with a heavier mag, except in the case of Ross's 414 in which he
fitted an internal rotor magneto!
The rod kit I have onhand is BC.5098R
Apart fron the 414VG Jared, which has a different motoplat from what went before..
Sandy
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Not sure I understand the question. Please elaborate..
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There is a mistake in the Italkit catalog. The VA piston is not the same as the VG.
VR, V75 and the VA use one style of piston, VB, VE, VF, VG use another.
The motors that use the short rod (116mm) use a shorter cylinder. They have
one less cooling fin. The crank assembly's for the VB 250 and 360 are the same. 414 looks the same,
but for the location of the crankpin. Flywheel type would be dependant on the type of power delivery
the factory was looking for. All of the Montesa motoplat ignitions will interchange with each other.
Generally the bigger size motors went with a heavier mag, except in the case of Ross's 414 in which he
fitted an internal rotor magneto!
The rod kit I have onhand is BC.5098R
Apart fron the 414VG Jared, which has a different motoplat from what went before..
Sandy
The VG414 has the same weight flywheel as the H6 360 (very large) although it has the 33x1.5mm puller size. The H6 also has a second flywheel on the primary drive side. As Jared says I believe you could fit an earlier (lighter) ignition to the VG but the tractable power from the heavy flywheel and what I can see altered porting on the VG I'm not sure it would be better. I have tried a couple of different flywheel weights on my VB360 and the standard one is best. Lighter makes slick tracks less than fun. When Ross had the bike he had an internal rotor PVL and he said starting was easy (good spark) but it was interesting when traction was not perfect. I don't think I would be able to ride it as the difference between a 900g and 1100g flywheel was very noticeable. The 1100 g one is standard. The VG414 is around 1800g and as you know requires the large magneto cover
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The part number for the KTM s/e bearings that I've been using is:
544 30034 000
I don't know off-hand what size that is but I've been slappin' them into my 414's every time i've had the top off 'em (with the shimming that is there already).
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Thanks Ross, will check it out.
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The VG414 has the same weight flywheel as the H6 360 (very large) although it has the 33x1.5mm puller size. The H6 also has a second flywheel on the primary drive side. As Jared says I believe you could fit an earlier (lighter) ignition to the VG but the tractable power from the heavy flywheel and what I can see altered porting on the VG I'm not sure it would be better. I have tried a couple of different flywheel weights on my VB360 and the standard one is best. Lighter makes slick tracks less than fun. When Ross had the bike he had an internal rotor PVL and he said starting was easy (good spark) but it was interesting when traction was not perfect. I don't think I would be able to ride it as the difference between a 900g and 1100g flywheel was very noticeable. The 1100 g one is standard. The VG414 is around 1800g and as you know requires the large magneto cover
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I have just weighed a 250,360 and 414 flywheel 250=950g 360=1100g and 414=1800g as i always thought the 250 was lighter than the 360 flywheel.I also have a H6 360 enduro which had been standing in an outhouse for a few years before i got it and as my knowledge of the enduros is not good thought i would check to see what flywheels it had on and it does indeed have the smallish one on the primary drive but on the motoplat side it has the typical 360(1100g) one on it and not the 1800g that montynut says but does have the large magneto cover strange?.
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Why when i try to put a quote in is it not like everyone else's
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The VG414 has the same weight flywheel as the H6 360 (very large) although it has the 33x1.5mm puller size. The H6 also has a second flywheel on the primary drive side. As Jared says I believe you could fit an earlier (lighter) ignition to the VG but the tractable power from the heavy flywheel and what I can see altered porting on the VG I'm not sure it would be better. I have tried a couple of different flywheel weights on my VB360 and the standard one is best. Lighter makes slick tracks less than fun. When Ross had the bike he had an internal rotor PVL and he said starting was easy (good spark) but it was interesting when traction was not perfect. I don't think I would be able to ride it as the difference between a 900g and 1100g flywheel was very noticeable. The 1100 g one is standard. The VG414 is around 1800g and as you know requires the large magneto cover
Because you cut off the "[quote author=montynut link=topic=17154.msg172054#msg172054 date=1296182190" in front of the quote.
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I have 2 H6-360 engines in the shed both are original, I know the full history of one and both have the large motoplat flywheel maybe the H6 you have has had a replacement put on at some time as it is not unusual.
The VB250 is the only centre port engine with an internal rotor ignition as far as I know. The VE, VF & VG 250s went back to external rotor to compensate for a lighter crank.
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Montnut you could be right on the H6 it might in its history have had a replacement flywheel.
The lighter 250 flywheel i have is a spare one so over the next few days i will have a look at my 250ve and 250vf flywheels that are on the bikes as it has been a long time since i have looked at them.The 250 1976 flywheel does have a different part number to the ve and vf so it could be they changed from 1979 and just that i have not noticed.