OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: chrisdespo on January 23, 2011, 03:52:12 pm
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I may be a bit old school, and find nothing better on a bike frame be it MX Road or whatever than a few nice coats of Gloss Black Lacquer . Its shiny smooth and has depth , its very easy to repair a frame finished in lacquer, any dents and deep scores can be filled with various material , Bronze, lead, solder and even bodyfiller for some things. When you want to refinish again its easy to remove. and touch ups are a breeze.
Most favored bikes being 2 Stroke will have the engines out a couple of times a year to facilitate rebuilds, a quick light sand with a bit of wet and dry a quick squirt of lacquer and the frame is back to mint.
None of that Jammy looking powdercoat for me ;)
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Agree 100%
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Why does anybody use powdercoat? I'm not being funny here but I don't understand what advantages there might be. Powdercoating to me is just a cheap way for mass production. It flakes of in big pieces and also adds too much thickness.
Cheers, Grahame.
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I've often wondered myself. :-\
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Must be using the wrong powdercoaters
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custom coatings at brendale qld,experts in p/coat and zinc finishes,i tried alot of coaters in qld and most are cowboys but the guys at brendale are pro, i rather 2k but sometimes its just easier to go the p/coat
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I always paint my frames but I had my TM400 B&S frame powdercoated because I was offered a freebie job. I've regretted it ever since. I like the ability easily to touch up or even change colour when ever I need it.
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I race my bikes and rather powder coat at this stage as it lasts longer. My frames look like crap in a short time if painted.
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Our vote goes to powdercoating for frames..
neat
clean
no ware (boot area)
last longer
never had any problems
just looks good 8)
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2 pack enamel with an etch coat does it for me.
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So what's hard about touching up a powdercoated frame? In my experience it's no harder than a painted frame.
K
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Any problems that occur in a powder coating job are because it was not done correctly in the first place.As far as touching up goes its the same procedure for both wet sprayed paint or powder coating and if its not done correctly it will cause problems as well.Its gets back to the old saying you get what you pay for if you pay a cheep price or even get it for free you should ask yourself why.
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Ugly thick powdercoat ...................aka a woman's make up.................. ::)
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Even though my powdercoat job was for free, it's a great job and looks pretty good. My problem with it is that it's taken away my ability to do it myself.
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Powdercoating was never intended be used on motorcycle frames. One day someone decided to to it and thought it was a good idea and then it just sort of took off because it was 'cheap' IMO powder coating belongs on handles of garden tools and outdoor furnature etc and maybe the odd small bike parts like shock springs.
Yes you get what you pay for.
Powder coating is easy and usually cheaper than paint. Im not a fan of powdercoating and would never get a frame done. If you really want to do it though, make sure the powdercoater uses an etch primer on the frame first otherwise your just wasting your money getting it done. The real cheap coaters do it onto bare metal with no primer. As soon as you get one little chip and expose the bare metal, moisture/cool air starts rusting the bare metal very quickly and if you dont notice it, the rust quicky works its way under the powder coat and then it starts to peel and fall off. Also a lot of powdercoaters will not take the time to mask things off like bearing mounts, threads, studs etc but most painters will. That is one of the reasons powercoating is cheaper. This means you have to clean the thick coating off when your re-fitting parts to the bike and you can have trouble fitting things like swingarms or shocks. When you have any imperfections in the frame a painter will apply a high build undercoat and rub/sand it back so the surface is smooth. Powder coaters dont do this. If there is imperfections, they just keep building the coating up till the surface is smoother but that also then makes the coating way too thick all over. Bottom line is that ive seen far too many bad powdercoat jobs so i couldn't really reccomend it.
Paint is also more maintenance free or should i say easier to maintain than powdercoating. If you get a chip in the powercoat and you haven't got a etch primer under it, basically if you dont touch up that bare metal spot asap, you may as well get your frame re-done again. if you get one little stone chip in an event, mud.water will get under the power coat and start rusting away with in hours/days, especially if its salty mud/water. If its painted and it happens to chip, it will only chip to the undercoat or primer and not back to bare metal so then you dont have to worry about it rusting right away and you can then touch it up the next day or what ever. How ever if the paint process is done right and the correct preparations and steps are used and the paint hasnt been applied real thick, then the paint shouldnt really chip at all, you might just get a scrape/rub mark.
Being in the restoration business, i only paint frames. I often get bikes that have been half started by someone else or the owner has done as much as they can and they usually have gone the cheap way of powdercoating and it hasnt been a very good job. Almost everyone i speak to that has had frames powdercoated has regretted it and wish they just got it painted. More often than not we end up getting their powdercoating stuff stripped off and then paint the parts after they realise that the powdercoating job isn't as good.
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Powder coating on the race bikes , enamel on the show ponies ;)
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Just to correct a few points in this thread,
I do powder coating so know what it's about (but I will not profess to being an expert at it).
Powder coat is just paint with no solvent it is applied via electrostatic and heated to form the coating.
Powder coating needs surface prep like all other paints and can be primed with a base coat to stop rusting and then top coated.
The problem with a lot of people that do it is they apply it to thick and this is was causes the lifting when chipped, also not being correctly baked (for the right amount of time at the right temp can also cause this). powder coating goes on at about 40 to 50 microns and wet paint is about 30 microns, problem with powder coating that chips (in big pieces) is that is sprayed on to thick at around 80 microns.
I have several of my bikes powder coated and several painted and the wear rate is about the same.
I do touch up the powder coated frames with normal paint without and concern.
I have found it as very good wearing on hubs I powder coat and have several bikes that have done over 4 seasons of racing and the finish is still great (no cheaping) and you will find it adheres better to a ruff surface.
It is a coating that can be sanded and painted over just like any other paint.
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The people that have had problems with powdercoat have probably gone to "oll mate down the road" cose he's cheaper and got what they paid for.....Part of my business is restoring Aussie musclecars and to keep the quality up to a high standard takes alot of years searching to find other business's/tradesman to help with the job. My powdercoater I have known and used for over 25 years....never had a problem, he is probably one of the top coaters with his knowledge and experience. There are more cowboy's out there than good coaters. I could be wrong but I think about 99% of everything (except automotive) thats metal and painted these days is probably powdercoat....the chinese still dont know how to do it. Theres nothing wrong with powdercoat when its done properly. Nearly all the colors come with paint touch up cans. More painters create problems when they touch the freshly sandblasted part with there bare hands and start the corrosion straight away without knowing it. I have seen this first hand with hand/fingerprints coming through under the paint within 12 months...ofcourse the painter "never" touched it with his bare hands......I powdercoat all my metal parts that are color unless there is not the correct color available. You cannot beat it for durability and UV resistance.
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so it seems that preparation is the key.the trouble is with me is i am stuck in my ways. I did read somewhere on the site someone powder coating their brake drums , not a good thing to do. Brakes work on changing kinetic energy to heat and the the heat is radiated away by the fins on the brake drum. to much paint or powder coating can reduce the amount of heat radiated away reducing the brakes efficiency. bead blast the drum surface and a very thin coat of flat black or even better no paint for best results.
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How do you remove powdercoat from hubs and give yourself a chance to get back to original?
The powdercoat on my pre 75 Husky hubs (already done when I purchased) is so thick the spokes don't seat properly.
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I dont know but by the sound of a lot of posts if you were to chip the powder coat it will probably fall off by itself (lol).
May be some one would know if stripper of some sort , with paint you just glass bead blast then mask up and re-coat. by the way not that it makes to much difference on dirt bikes but the extra surface area you get with bead blasting can make a difference to brake performance, it all helps though, even spokes seating down in the hub would dissipate the heat away as well when you think about it.
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You can either get the hubs blasted or cleaned in a chemical bath....I always paint my hubs but frame parts I powdercoat.
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Give me Paint , i still recon every frame that i've seen powder coated looks Bog orible!
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I'm pretty sure cr's were powder coated from the 80's onwards
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just had this powder coated, came up great
(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/ozmaico/IMGP3694.jpg)
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Man that does look good Paul.
New one to the fleet or a freshin up?
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It's probably a DAS Shane (Dave Alsop Special) ;D....does look good though.
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new one, stock 78 :P with a 490 engine
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To paint or powder, that is the question.
Seems to be a lot of stereotypes involved here.
Powder coaters never mask up holes but painters always do!!
Powder was never intended for frames!!
Powder always falls off but paint never does!!
Everything has its pro’s & cons
It all seems a bit like choosing which football team or religion to barrack for.
Give me Paint , i still recon every frame that i've seen powder coated looks Bog orible!
Thing is, you could be looking at a good powder coat job and not know it, you only notice the bad jobs.
I have used a few powder coaters for various jobs over the years and they have all had a collection of bolts that they screw into any threaded holes.
The powder should never look thick, if it does then don’t use that powder coater again, just the same as you wouldn’t use a dodgy painter a second time.
Powder is cheap because of the process, not the quality.
Powder is not made from acid that will eat into any paint that is sprayed over it.
I also thought that most modern cars are powder coated??
Paint has the option of being able to mix more colours whereas powder has set colours, and its easier to bog up imperfections.
The fact that primer isn’t used in a lot of jobs is because
# A Most don’t want to pay the extra
# B Most of the time its not necessary
It is recommended that any outdoors stuff should be either primed or plated.
I made a fence back in 97 that was made from Gal tube and mild steel bar. The mild steel was wire brushed and sprayed with cold gal before powder coating.
I had to replace some of the fence in 2000 because a truck backed into it and I bought the old pieces home to be used as farm fencing.
The powder on those pieces is still holding up fine despite being out in the weather for 13 years.
Bottom line is powder is a very durable and cheap option.
Paint may be better for the garage queen is it can be used to cover more imperfections.
If looking for a powder coater try inspecting finished products that usually sit around for pickup, if you don’t like what you see try somewhere else.
Paint or powder, looking for the cheapest quote isn’t always wise.
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I spent a bit of time working on my B&S TM400 today, and even though I took the anti powder stance earlier in this thread, I must admit that the guy who did the powdercoat of the frame did a really good job. The frame had been poorly nickel plated when it was new and it looked like crap with no chance of bringing it back to life with a polish so I had it blasted and then powdercoated straight over the blasted nickel. Even though the bike's seen very little dirt action it's still holding up admirably and looks as good as the day it was done.
As I said in an earlier post, the only reason I prefer paint is that I like to do as many facets of the bike build myself and powder coating is a bit out of my realm. I like painting, even rattle can jobs give me a feeling of "done it myself" satisfaction.
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How much does the stock tm400 frame weigh Firko I think it is nearly a tonne I have to get mine under way I want to race it this year if possible I think I will go spray painted frame only because that is what it was originally.
I think powder coated may be better wearing too on those parts of the frame where your boots rub my pe400t has a few spots where your boots will wear off the paint I have a 85 cr250 so looks like it will have a powder coated frame.
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Frosty, Lose some unsprung weight. Solid mount sprocket '77 onward TS100/125/185 or RM125M-B type rear hub for example can be used and weigh far less ;) shhh..this is not a hi-jack! Just a passing comment ;)
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Geoff - there is only one football team!!!! As far as the painting/powdercoating debate goes must admit I had one pc job cocked up over several months by must be the worst powdercoater in the world!! But after asking around have found a guy who is absolutely brilliant - even knows the early Honda colours and I just keep going back. Have not had a problem with his work on the bike ever and it looks smicko. And like Firko - I have done the home job as well but must confess I lean towards the powdercoating.
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If it's the one you recommended to me Rossco, I fully agree. Brilliant job. My first PC experience, I'll be interested to see how it compares.
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Geoff - there is only one football team!!!!
Yes but is that your football team or your religion
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If we can get a few people to buy one of these then we can compare how thick the frame coatings are.
We can then add them into a new thread like the ‘weighing in’ thread.
We could call the new thread “How thick are we” :o
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/Ultrasonic-tool.jpg)
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I'm sure your employee Ji has one Geoff. ;D
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the only problem I have with powder coating is the damage the rock blaster does to the frame, I worked in the bike shop for many years & still help out mates with their bikes now & have seen dozens & dozens of powder coat/ sand-rock blasting jobs from many different powder coaters the damage they do can not undone even though the coating may look good the frame may be damaged , cheers middo :-\
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If it was that bad then why do manufacturers do it?....lets think about it....what do you do with a crusty old frame?, chemical dip it?....how do you get the acid out of those nooks and crannies?...is it washed out properly?, was the frames bare metal not touched with bare hands before painting/coating?....wire brush it...yea right, thats gunna clean the rust/scale off properly, especially in the weld areas and the insides......grind/sand it with the wrong type of abrasives (no offence but most of you guys wouldnt know the correct grade or types available NOWDAYS and the type of tools available, which goes hand in hand with the cost), Grinding will do more damage to a frame than you think...sandblasting actually takes off alot less than you think and leaves a good surface for any repairs that need doing....BEFORE painting/coating (I have 2 frames at the moment I have been working on, both on "restored" bikes and its clear to see the dickheads just stripped the frames and sent them off to the blasters/coaters without repairing the stripped bolts/bent subframes etc). Your plan of attack should be if its hard to pick all the faults, get it blasted, then get it back and go over it with a fine tooth -comb, repair it, then send it away for whatever you want it covered in....alot of mucking around but the end result will show.......amature.....professional?.....now all the rattle -can restorers will be up me like a rat up a drainpipe (by the way...rattle-cans are perfectly OK to use in the right place, but thats another story). You need to find quality trades people to do your work that you cant undertake yourself and the best way to do that is to ask around....if you see a bike thats been done, ask old-mate who did what...its alot cheaper/easier than paying twice or three times. Anyway, thats your Sunday school lesson for the day, now all you kiddies go outside and play....fairly ofcourse. ;D
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We could call the new thread “How thick are we”
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Call me foolish and old fashioned but I like rattle cans and nickel plating. ;)
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Firko, You are foolsh and old fashioned ;D ;D ;D
Well you said to call you that!
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I have no complaints with rattle can jobs either if done with the proper care and attention. Never gone any other way and never been disappointed with the result or durability. It's what I can afford ;) Money I save on pins and paint I spend on mechanicals. Can't remember last time I had any sort of blow up or mechanical issue from running flat out excepting a broken brake stay arm ::) judge a book by it's cover if you wish but it's a bit of a shallow perspective ;D
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If you have seen or had a bad job? Common sense tells you not to go there again. Doesn’t matter if it was a Doctor, Builder, Tiler or powder-coater.
It is a bit harsh to generalise and slag a whole industry because you or your mate had a bad result with an amateur.
This was done by specialists at Pro Strip at Redhead near Newcastle.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/FORUM180.jpg?t=1296971317)
They know what bike owners want, because they are all bike owners. They all compete. The owner has even competed overseas. The foreman has a road bike he did twenty one years ago. It still looks like new.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/FORUM181.jpg?t=1296973059)
A lot of the beginning of frame cracks are not visible until blasted or Dye checked. They control gun pressure to use a soft Garnet blast, just enough surface disturbance to create a strong foot hold for the bonding. A lot of cracks don't show until blasted, they tell you via your mobile. If you too busy to pick it up and weld it yourself? They will wizz it over the road to a specialist welder and have it repaired for you dirt cheap.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/FORUM179-1.jpg?t=1296971052)
Everyone that comes here and see’s my stuff, comments how good it is. No one picks it for powder coat(too thin).
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/FORUM178.jpg?t=1296976682)
First place I look when buying a bike or frame is the condition underneath the engine craddle. With powder coating this thin, there is no hiding anything, especially all rust pits or dings so easily bogged up and hidden by the spraying painters or rattle caners. Would any one of you know sprayers or rattle caners to paint something without bogging or spray puttying the dents and imperfections first? I think not.
Tin snip or guillotine a flat square of metal for them to powder coat at the same time. Its great for a computer match of touch up thimble, if your bike actually does get used.
Horses for courses. Refresh for ride protection. Or restore for show or profit.
cost out;
paint stripper
gloves, goggles
wet and dry
packet of finger band aids
primer
thinners
enamal(for a wall hanging)
more thinners and cleaning up
or two pack and hardener and yeah specialized thinners and more clean up
rubbing back the fingers between coats.
For me me it spells, "false economy"
How is your Life measured when you have to do things that shit you?
Life is time and time is money, lets see the costing figures on that. Me, I do frame repairs and then hand it professional powder coaters. Blast and one super tough thin bonded coat please. Thank you.
Between 10 and 23 years, I owned 128 bikes, 97% were purchased broken. Repaired, rattled caned and sprayed frames etc, buffed and brassoed. Then sold as profit to fund the bikes I really wanted. Or just to see the finish come off and expose the bare metal to the elements again. Usually the first time you slip it onto any sort of stand. Not for me at this stage of life. NO Thanks.
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the only problem I have with powder coating is the damage the rock blaster does to the frame, I worked in the bike shop for many years & still help out mates with their bikes now & have seen dozens & dozens of powder coat/ sand-rock blasting jobs from many different powder coaters the damage they do can not undone even though the coating may look good the frame may be damaged , cheers middo :-\
If your talking about blasting the frame before powder coating then it comes down to what it’s been blasted with and how they treat it.
They don't actually use sand anymore as it was outlawed years ago.
The common abrasive is either Garnet or Glass, both of which come in different grades.
If you go to a place that blasts large industrial beams then there’s a good chance they will blast a frame into oblivion.
Painters also get parts blasted.
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If your talking about blasting the frame before powder coating then it comes down to what it’s been blasted with and how they treat it.
They don't actually use sand anymore as it was outlawed years ago.
The common abrasive is either Garnet or Glass, both of which come in different grades.
If you go to a place that blasts large industrial beams then there’s a good chance they will blast a frame into oblivion.
Painters also get parts blasted.
Spot on Mr Morris. Thank you 8)
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If you have seen or had a bad job? Common sense tells you not to go there again. Doesn’t matter if it was a Doctor, Builder, Tiler or powder-coater.
It is a bit harsh to generalise and slag a whole industry because you or your mate had a bad result with an amateur.
A lot of the beginning of frame cracks are not visible until blasted or Dye checked.
A lot of cracks don't show until blasted, they tell you via your mobile.
cost out;
paint stripper
gloves, goggles
wet and dry
packet of finger band aids
primer
thinners
enamal(for a wall hanging)
more thinners and cleaning up
or two pack and hardener and yeah specialized thinners and more clean up
rubbing back the fingers between coats.
For me me it spells, "false economy"
How is your Life measured when you have to do things that shit you?
Life is time and time is money, lets see the costing figures on that. Me, I do frame repairs and then hand it professional powder coaters. Blast and one super tough thin bonded coat please. Thank you.
Spot on Mick
I think we fall into the false economy trap in a lot of things.
And a good blaster will be on the look out for you.
I recently got a call that a frame had a crack show up after it was blasted.
It’s comforting to know the guys take notice of what their doing.
FWIW Campbellfield Powder Coaters
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Funny the path to a success sometimes.
Took a bike job in last week. Owner needs both wheels rebuild. It is basically a black and chrome bike, so he wants to switch to black rims at the same time, stainless spokes,etc.
I stripped the wheels. We got a price on new black rims ::)
With all this powder coating discussion fresh in my mind, I thought what the hell, the old silver scratched rims are straight enough, so lets try powder coating and dropped them out to Pro Strip, Newcastle
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/FORUM191.jpg?t=1297571142)
We have literally saved a small fortune. The owner is absolutely wrapped with the quality of the job and so am I. Thin as, the spoke nipples fit straight in without any hassle. You can still read the ID writing etc, nothing thick about this job. Absolutely perfect.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/FORUM196.jpg?t=1297571163)
We are so happy, we realized in hind sight that we should have asked them if it is possible to do this stuff as well? Any how worse that can happen is they so no. We will find out this week
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/FORUM199.jpg?t=1297572128)
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Looks good.
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Sure looks good to me, have a set of CZ hubs to pick up this week that I hope come out looking as good
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bit late and down the track but I have to agree with Davy - I started out as a sandblaster/spraypainter too many years ago to mention - our systems we so good (dry and wet blasting) we could actually take a layer of paint off only - obviously still need to touch up below but that is how little a sandblaster can remove if set up and run correctly.
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" tony 27 " Can you post a picture of you CZ hubs when you get them back and let us know if you are happy with the colour, also let us know the the powder name and code, i'm interested in doing the hubs off my side piper.
Zane
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i took a frame to my local blaster, i think they just took it out back and threw rocks at it until the paint was off. it was bloody horrible. that rim looks mint i might have to try pro strip!
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Finally a little time for this job again ::)
I am sure the operators at Pro Strip will know exactly what to do with these hubs.
But I did a couple of things that might make it easier for them to give me exactly what I want.
They can hang the hubs from either end.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/FORUM213.jpg?t=1298217733)
Correct interference fits of internal bearing and seal surfaces are protected from blasting media and paint by welsh plugs.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/FORUM210.jpg?t=1298217656)
I obviously just halved a couple of lengths of brooker rod, formed some hooks on ends. Protective loose fitting pipe sleeves will keep paint away from threads of tightening nuts. So we can use the set up over and over again.
Its all in the owners boot now. So I will post a picture of the rear arrangement when it returns.
Patent Pending :D
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i took a frame to my local blaster, i think they just took it out back and threw rocks at it until the paint was off. it was bloody horrible. that rim looks mint i might have to try pro strip!
Yes I know what you mean Steveo. Many many moons ago I took a CZ frame to a grave head stone mason for blasting. I was shattered >:(
I spray puttied and sanded etc, etc, etc. Black enameled it. By the the time I had it half together, there was paint chipped of every where. It was shit. So broken hearted, I gave up on it.
I recently got Pro Strip to repair it with a coat of Falta red. They did an excellent job, really really thin. I will try to get a picture on this week.
Cheers, Mick.
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Those rims look pretty flash there Mick-De. I was thinking of the same idea on my current build but I managed to locate some good rims. What a great way to bring life back into old rims. My YZ400 frame, hubs clamps were powder coated by a local guy here in Camden. They were already done when I bought the bike and seemed to hold up well. Personally I prefer to paint only because I love using the gun. I also love the smell of thinners :) I have been known to be called THE SNIFFER over the years.
I generally like to use good old air dry enamel with a small % of hardner thrown in. I also use 2pak from Protec paints here in Sydney. Their product is really good and I like their range of etch primer.
Here is my current build IT465H White Knight
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm118/hotvette/Yamaha%20IT/103_0070.jpg)
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I was at my mates place on Sunday, checking out his (extremely) long term project HL Yamaha and was surprised to see that he'd had his rims powder coated. The wheels hadn't been fitted with tyres yet which prompted me to wonder how powdercoated rims will withstand tyre iron abuse? He's having his tyres fitted by machine at the bike shop to lessen the chances of damage. I personally think that powdercoating rims offers too big a possibility for damage, especially during the tyre change process. I'll stick to anodizing or polishing my rims being the old school good 'ol boy that I am. 8)
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tony lot of Chez Zed hubs painted in that "wrinkle" gold in unzud looks original
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The powdercoater is planning on doing a custom mix to lighten the gold closer to the correct colour, most will tell you it's not possible but he's done it quite a few times before
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The wheels hadn't been fitted with tyres yet which prompted me to wonder how powdercoated rims will withstand tyre iron abuse? He's having his tyres fitted by machine at the bike shop to lessen the chances of damage.
you could try them plastic covers they slip on the bead. the rood bikes use them when they cjange over tyres, and im sure they are powdercoated alloy ? you get like 3 vclips on a bit of string and you slip them on the bead of the rim and you lever off at 3 points, looks prity simple to me and they swear by them. id say more cance of a slip up on a tyre machine as the tool rins on the rim if it or the wheel is out of round at al point , and then poooof off chips the paint !
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Must say those rims look good and a nice light coat great job ,but i still like paint probably cause i can do it myself and for me the whole idea of doing up a bike is doing as much of the work myself.If every thing goes to plan i can post some pics of my soon to be project.
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i just had some "old" rims powdercoated in gloss black.
i'd been tossing the idea around for a while as the rims would of been a lot of hard work to clean up all the nicks & gouges should i have wanted them "polished".
very happy with the end result but some of the deeper gouges can still be seen under the powdercoating.
4 rims for $100 i reckon was pretty good value.
i'm not too big a fan of "black" rims but what the hell....
i'm on a budget :D
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I'd be more tempted to do rims in silver.
I like the more traditional look but also if they do become scratched through use then the chips would blend in better with the silver background