OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: maxvmx on January 15, 2011, 11:51:09 am
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The other day I went into a shop specializing in quad bikes and accessories. Anyway looking around I noticed they had a four stroke motocross bike displayed of to one side of their showroom. At first glance I thought it was a blinged up CRF 250 Honda. As it turned out it was a Chinese rip off of one that at a casual glance looked pretty good, it had all the gear that a Honda would have plus it even had an electric start.
I asked the person there what one was worth and was blown away when he told me it was $2360 with six months warranty inclusive of parts and labour. These have undoubtedly been around for a while now but it’s the first time I’ve ever had a good look at one. That bike was serious bang for buck that would be plenty good for a novice.
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The very mention of Chinese bikes usually opens up a hornets nest of opinion. I think we all know about how badly built the Chinese product was a few short years ago and it's true that they're still a long way from getting it 100% right with their current products...BUT they're getting better and better with every new release. The sum of the parts that make up a Chinese bike are esentially pretty damn good for the money. Despite criticism from some, I use Chinese footpegs, chain guides, throttles and have dabbled in CDI ignitions. All of these produucts are as good as any you'll find for 10 times the price in the fancy dirt bike catalogues. A classic example is the footpegs my mates son bought from Ballards catalogue for near $100. They're absolutely identical down to every detail to the same pegs I bought from China for 15 bucks, the very same products without the fancy shrinkwrap packaging. A mate who regularly visits China for business went to a foundry and saw forged stainless steel footpegs being made by the thousands, mostly for the American aftermarket industry.....and locally made Chondas. Yep, the same parts.
These full sized Chinese bikes are pretty damn good for the money and if you're not too serious about fashion or winning races, will serve you pretty well. I've used this anology before but I'm old enough to remember serious bike guys openly laughing at Japanese bikes. I copped it from all quarters when I turned up at the races with my RT1MX back in 1970. Five years later all of those blokes who were laughing at Jap bikes were riding them. Today, the Japs set the industry standards. In more recent times we all criticised the very thought of Korea ever producing a decent car. When Hyundai first hit the market people walked in big arcs around then not wanting to be seen near one. Now, they produce some of the best cars in the market, equal and in some cases better than the equivalent Japanese or Euro model.
Mark my words....once the Chinese get their act fully together and start to lure decent engineers from Japan and Europe watch out. Let's not forget that the Japs didn't have much of a clue on how to build a motocross bike until Suzuki lured Olle Petersen over to develop their RH/RN works bikes and Yamaha and Honda opened the door to American and Swedish development engineers to help on their products.
The era of the quality Chinese dirt bike is closer than you think.
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Mark my words....once the Chinese get their act fully together and start to lure decent engineers from Japan and Europe watch out. Let's not forget that the Japs didn't have much of a clue on how to build a motocross bike until Suzuki lured Olle Petersen over to develop their RH/RN works bikes and Yamaha and Honda opened the door to American and Swedish development engineers to help on their products.
The era of the quality Chinese dirt bike is closer than you think.
Chinas failing or weakness presently is in the metallurgy. The simply don't know how to spec which alloy to use where.
Mark, the don't need to poach from Japan. Taiwan has the expertise and I've heard the mainland is offering some very attractive deals to poach engineers from there.
But I agree, it won't be long. When we start to see Chinese bikes in the W/C they will have arrived.
P.S. I hear that the BMW/Husqvarna motor is made by Kymco with resident German engineers overseeing quality (so the Chinese don't take any shortcuts).
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In more recent times we all criticised the very thought of Korea ever producing a decent car. When Hyundai first hit the market people walked in big arcs around then not wanting to be seen near one. Now, they produce some of the best cars in the market, equal and in some cases better than the equivalent Japanese or Euro model.
Totally agree Firko. I just did my first big trip in my new CDRi Hyundai iLoad van (my bike transporter) and the thing is just amazing to drive and uses stuff-all fuel.
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I regularly wonder how one of the better quality Chinese 250Fs would compare to an XR or TTR250 for a similar price. The few tests the bike mags have done on the Chinese bikes have (deliberately?) gone nowhere near the question.
The local bike shop has sold a few better quality pit bikes (brand forgotten). There's a CRF based one with 17/14" wheels there ATM and it presents as a sensible/realistic bike.
In contrast, there's an old pit bike there for repair, and the difference is glaring.
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Chinas failing or weakness presently is in the metallurgy
agree 1500%, most (not all) Chinese bikes have horribly woeful metallurgy and terribly ineffective plating including all chrome, hardchrome and plated fasteners. Reliability isn't so much the issue anymore but if you leave it somewhere where the weather or elements can get to it then expect corrosion, lots and lots of corrosion! I won't hold my breath waiting for the Chinese bikes to enter world MXGP or MotoGP simply because they have no need, they're cleaning up with the cheapy bikes and quads both on the home market and with exports, making them more expensive wouldn't be in their best interests I don't feel ;)
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Well l bought my son a Yamaha tt125 4 stroke, and seriously looking at the quility of the bike and comparing it with a 74 Yamaha Dt125 that l also had at the time, the Dt was a much better built bike. Japanese bikes are loosing their quility too.
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but if you leave it somewhere where the weather or elements can get to it then expect corrosion, lots and lots of corrosion!
so their no good as a boat anchor either !! :-\ ;D
cheers A
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Work mate recently bought a XR200/250 copy.
We all laughed at him. :)
This guy is elderley ( older than me ), a truck driver , farmer , sweeps for the Killarney trail ride and has a reputation as the fastest rider on a heap of shit ever seen.
He checks on his cows in the forestry behind Killarney every morning before coming to work and hasn,t had a moments trouble.
Loves the electric start and wonders how he ever got on without one.
He recons he would buy another one .
We still laugh but not as loud.
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On the same page but different paragraph, my daughters fella drive a TD D-max as was keen to see how it was going on the Dakar. Early days it was up to 18th but then Bruce Garland hurt his back and had to pull out. The boyfriend was a bit pissed off then I told him the the Great Wall was still going fine and up to 15th ( I note that it's not on the finisher sheet for today though) Two Cherys are still in the hunt though :D :D :D
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I've said before - been in mineral processing for 30 years now and the current forged Chinese mill balls we are using are the best I have ever seen and are saving me hundreds of thousands of dollars a year - and at a cheaper price to buy!
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I won't hold my breath waiting for the Chinese bikes to enter world MXGP or MotoGP simply because they have no need
Nor did the Japanese in the late '50's/early '60's. The world was their oyster, they had the domestic market sewn up and were beginning to make inroads in the US but they went for competition to prove that they could compete. Old man Honda was a great believer in the adage "racing improves the breed".
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There has already been a small official team entry from a Chinese bike with Euro riders in some mid level enduros in Europe last year. I don't know the details, it was shown on one of those motorsports digest shows and I missed the beginning of the piece. Apparently they're going to ramp up the effort over the next couple of years, up to and including the ISDE and motocross.
The Chinese cars in the Paris-Dakar are a good indication that the Chinese understand the 'race on Sunday, sell on Monday' philosophy. I wouldn't worry about metalurgy of the quality of the chrome plating too much. The Japs weren't very good at those things either...especially chrome but they eventually cottoned on to what was needed.
Jonesy is in the refractory ceramics (furnace, boiler and oven insulation and linings)business and he used to import his raw materials from Europe, India and Malaysia..as well as actually manufacturing some materials here. He then started dealing with the Chinese and will readily admit that in the beginning their products were pretty ordinary but extremely cheap. Today, after only a few short years the products are still cheap but the quality is now regarded as the worlds best. That philosophy will carry over to motorcycles, cars, televisions and whatever else you want to name. It's a bit frightening but there's not a lot we can do about it now, the horse has bolted .
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Mate is in China working on a 80cc M/X bike for the masses and they are starting to realise use Brembo brakes and better parts on the bike that will be available then world wide for spares.There next project is a 650cc for the militry. Chuckle for now but laugh at ones peril?
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Rossco, how dare you buy Chinese grinding media-thats Un Australian. :o
In all seriousness,when you visit China and see the money sloshing about up there,it becomes quite apparent, that they are catching up to the Western world fast, and in some areas already gone past.
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I, for one, welcome our Chinese overlords ::)
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I've said before - been in mineral processing for 30 years now and the current forged Chinese mill balls we are using are the best I have ever seen and are saving me hundreds of thousands of dollars a year - and at a cheaper price to buy!
Just of out of interest Rossco the mill balls that you are buying from China, are they also known as Ragging Balls as we were making these by the MIM process in Ballarat for Gekko from 5mm to 65mm with what ever sg needed.
Regards Stan.
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I, for one, welcome our Chinese overlords ::)
Having lived their for 3 years and worked as engineer I don't particularly.
In a lot of cases what you are seeing is the effect of overseas operations and licensees of Honda, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, VW etc etc bringing the quality expectations to the table, in the same way as they bought the designs a decade ago. Korea also went through this process with Hyundai being supported by Mitsubishi, Mercedes with Sangyang, GM with Daewoo. The influence of the companies with FDI still positively effects the whole industry in China.
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I was being facecious Marc.
The reputation of the Chinese in Africa is not good. There have been some very unpleasant incidents in Zambia and a member of the govt in that country has stated that they wish they didn't need Chinese investment. Odd then that the govts of Zimbabwe and South Africa do not pay heed to Zambias experience.
However returning to the OP it does make me wonder how much profit the Euros and Japs are making on a bike and whether the labour costs are that much greater in Europe and Japan.
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i had a jianshe 200 full size road trail looked like ttr sounded like ttr kept up with xr 200's no trouble at all except when the xr hit 6th.only down fall was 5 speed and weak as piss but very reliable jianshe is part owned by yamaha.cheers gary
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All the Major Japanese Factories have collaboration with Chinese factories as it is now and a lot of models from the Big 4 are coming out of China,such as the RM80,I think you will find they have the ability to make and engineer anything to a certain spec and when the Western or Japanese Manufactures require something to a certain spec they can do it,There own branded stuff is a bit ordinary is some areas but they are manufactured to a price,
#8
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So VMX circa 2030 will be the odd CRF, YZF, RMZ etc... but mainly 2015 model Jinchengs, Yamamotos et al... dominating. Yuk !
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So VMX circa 2030 will be the odd CRF, YZF, RMZ etc... but mainly 2015 model Jinchengs, Yamamotos et al... dominating. Yuk !
Aint we lucky its not our vintage :P ;D
cheers A
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Do they make a good XR 80 copy?
I havent seen one if they do.
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Do they make a good XR 80 copy?
Mick, send 'em a couple of clear pictures and they'll have one done for you by next Monday. ;D
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Gav Mcleod,s dad said of the Taiwanese "they could copy anything".
Weren,t much good at inventing stuff though.
Mike
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Do they make a good XR 80 copy?
Mick, send 'em a couple of clear pictures and they'll have one done for you by next Monday. ;D
Firko I still have XL 75 which I can register for a pit bike, I thought if I blended the two ;)
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Gav Mcleod,s dad said of the Taiwanese "they could copy anything".
Weren,t much good at inventing stuff though.
Mike
Same could be said of the Japs. But one exception leaps to (my) mind. Yagi! The chap who designed the antenna that bears his name. Marc, anything to add? Stuffed if I can think of anything else. Just goes to show that we as "round-eyes" must get our act together and work smart not hard.
P.s. dunno who came up with variable valve timing or VVT as Honda call it. Bruddy simple and clever. Anybody know who invented it?
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Nevermind. VVT can be traced back to the 1920 when it was implemented by Bristol aircraft engines. Porsche patented it in 1958.
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I agree with Marc - the Chinese are listening to overseas experience and going forward in leaps and bounds - maybe some people could learn from this.
Stan - no ours are just classed as mill grinding balls - 50-60mm and then 100-125mm for SAG And ball mill grinding of our gold ore.
And Craigy - I know you were being facetious - God when aren't you ;D - but we went from Australian balls to chinese because the Australian ones had too high a breakage rate - Chiense ones are classed as less than 1% - could not try them just based on dollars.
I would still rather my Holden than a great Wall - but I wonder for how long?
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But Rossco you need to support Australian made old mate,especially when the main supplier is paying my wages ;)
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If you wait long enough, everything old will be new again.
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Same could be said of the Japs. But one exception leaps to (my) mind. Yagi! The chap who designed the antenna that bears his name. Marc, anything to add? [/quote]
I have a good one, Fuji Masuoka, invented the flash memory chip, which is arguably the biggest step forward since the silicon chip..... so Masuoka san worked for Toshiba, they had a big inter department rivalry and they sold his invention to to the USA for 2 million.
Masuoka san got a bonus from Toshiba of 2 grand now teaches at Cal Tech for somewhat more than that.
Traditionally Japan pays their R&D people next to nothing, plus has a culture of not giving individuals credit for their inventions, so while they are innovative you never hear about it. But yes their strength is to develop ideas, they never accept failure and nothing is left un finished.
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Thanks Marc. I didn't realise that flash was a Japanese idea. It's a huge innovation. We are presently watching HDDs die (and about time too).
Your point about their culture has got me thinking. Japanese are great conformists and this will deter innovation. Where western culture thrives on individuality and the promotion of ideas, Japanese culture does not.
Now if I could get reneumerated for some of my ideas (one of which has gone on to make somebody very rich indeed)....
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If you wait long enough, everything old will be new again.
At the swap meet yesterday, the bike that seemed to be gathering the most interested on-lookers was a fairly clean, very original Gemini 175 road bike. The comments were invariably either "I thought these were a POS when they first came out, but I wouldn't mind one now" or "These things were actually alright, despite their reputation".
It was very easy to imagine the same sorts of discussions being had about a 2010 model Chinese bike, in another 30-odd years from now.
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So , if I go to Europe and pick-up the latest WSP or EML chassis and a Maico 700 smoker engine, pop into China on the way home and say copy me 20 of these please, I should be right to take control at the sidecar nationals-sounds fair to me-where do I sign :D :D :D
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Yeah, but the kickstart will probably bend/break first kick ::)
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So , if I go to Europe and pick-up the latest WSP or EML chassis and a Maico 700 smoker engine, pop into China on the way home and say copy me 20 of these please, I should be right to take control at the sidecar nationals-sounds fair to me-where do I sign :D :D :D
You would probly need 20 of them to get you through a days racing with the amount of bad luck u have with outfits!
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At the swap meet yesterday, the bike that seemed to be gathering the most interested on-lookers was a fairly clean, very original Gemini 175 road bike.
The agents, for a short time, in Queensland for the Gemini dirt bikes was Sunbeam/Victa. ??? ???
Believe it or not.
Mike
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I regularly wonder how one of the better quality Chinese 250Fs would compare to an XR or TTR250 for a similar price. The few tests the bike mags have done on the Chinese bikes have (deliberately?) gone nowhere near the question.
The local bike shop has sold a few better quality pit bikes (brand forgotten). There's a CRF based one with 17/14" wheels there ATM and it presents as a sensible/realistic bike.
In contrast, there's an old pit bike there for repair, and the difference is glaring.
It is very refreshing to see people with a positive attitude towards the Chinese bikes. The time has definitely arrived with the product coming in absolute leaps and bounds over the last few years.
I purchased my first Chinese ?mini" about 6 months back, paid less than $800 delivered to Tas and that was after a middleman in Melbourne was involved.
After hearing about quality issue in the past I wasn't expecting a lot here, however 90% of the bike is seriously impressive. The motor is fantastic, however I was smart enough to re grease swing arm bearings, head stock, put proper oil in the motor and take care of some minor things still forgotten about by them.
Nathan, I highlighted your post as someone on the miniriders forum has done what you proposed here. Buying a cheap air cooled Chinese 250, made a few minor improvements then ended up with a bike which goes as well - or better than an XR/TT 250 for less than $2,000.
The main negatives were the forks, so a set of second hand WR forks were purchased for $350 or so, the rest of the front end benefited too. The carby was swapped and a minor mod done on the rear muffler, the rear shock tweaked and he ended up with what appears to be a very reliable, yet very fun and capable machine.
Things may get tricky when China start entering the higher performance market as the tolerances and need for higher quality parts on the highly tuned race 4 strokes (CRF, YZF etc) is obvious. At this stage though I think they have no problem churning out nice and reliable, lowly stressed machines though, which are probably a hell of a lot more fun in the end anyway.
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Which in reality is what is reqd. How many of us really want a highly stessed hard to maintain traily when we all wish for something we can ride and wash ( or not) and park in the shed 'til next time we get the chance to ride again.
We are, my good fellows, exactly where we were in the early 70's when the japs began to release reliable, user freindly trail bikes that we all fell in love with. Just before they took a leaf out of Toyotas book and started to make a vehicle for everybody in 12 colours.
At one time when I worked at Suzuki we could order for import one of 165 different models in different colours for the masses, a long way from Triumph that had maybe 6 models across the range in whatever colour you wanted as long as it matched what they produced!!
As I said before, we are going to be racing a completely different breed by CD20
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Here's a new one Looks like an "old" DR-Z
http://perth.gumtree.com.au/c-ViewAdLargeImage?AdId=255398837&ImageIndex=1
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Here's a new one Looks like an "old" DR-Z
http://perth.gumtree.com.au/c-ViewAdLargeImage?AdId=255398837&ImageIndex=1
DOMINATOR MOTORCYCLES MALAGA
92489369
*BRAND NEW CPI SX250CC ROAD TRAIL 24HP *
*JUST LAUNCHED*
* 4 STROKE
* 6 SPEED GEARBOX
* 24 HP DOUBLE OVERHEAD CAM
* LIQUID COOLED
* DIGITAL SPEEDO
* LED INDICATORS
* ALUMINIUM HANDLEBARS AND SWING ARM
* 21 AND 18 INCH RIMS
$4450 RIDE AWAY OR $31 PW *FINANCE AVAILABLE*
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The build quality (of something or other)argument often comes up in the drivers room most mornings. I have always maintained that in the past the majority of Chinese were not that well off and everything was built to a price for that reason. Clearly the mobility (financial situation) of a fair percentage of the population has changed in the last ten years or so and with an awakening of just how big the export market is if they get whatever it is they are manufacturing right the sky is the limit.
As an aside another driver mentioned to me the other day that he saw or heard a doco recently on just this subject and it was quoted that if you use Toyota as a Typical middle of the road Japanese car manufacturer and Hyundai as a Typical middle of the road Korean manufacturer it took Hyundai twenty years to reach the same level as Toyota. The same doco mentioned that it will take the Chinese ten years to get to Toyota and Hyundai.
I was lucky enough to be a guest of the Yamaha Motor Co in Japan about thirty years ago to celebrate there 50 years of producing motorcycles and I happened to mention to one of the head honcho's that there was maybe a perception in the Western World that the Japanese maybe copied what was already being built at the time. His reply was that you have misread us completly Colin, we are IMPROVERS of that that is already being made. I have had a couple of days since to reflect on that statement.
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If you wait long enough, everything old will be new again.
It was very easy to imagine the same sorts of discussions being had about a 2010 model Chinese bike, in another 30-odd years from now.
RE: show us you minibike thread !!
Quote:Minibikes first came to Aust in the mid 60's when Honda imported a foldup 50cc machine which became known as the monkey bike.
Hondas impact was not great due to price and mainly aimed at adults..
Then Tas introduced a cheaper mini with single speed gearbox.Like Honda it was imported from Japan.
In 1969 Taiwan firms ,which had been exporting large numbers of bikes to US turned there eyes to Aust. ;D
Sales estimates are close total to 50,000 with annual 12,000 new units..perhap not unlike today ? !! with a choice of 20 different brands :P
Interesting to know what parents thought of imports back in the day ...??
It all still comes down to having the same old fun,same old dirt,same old bikes ;D
cheers A
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I would much prefer a machine that is built to a standard, as opposed to a price. I also believe that lesser priced bikes that are aimed at a niche market can actually undermine the stability of an existing market rather than adding stability. The only way they they can compete is on price; but we are talking apples and oranges here, so the entry point for them into the market is to weaken the existing one. A weak market can easily also become a very unsustainable one. I guess it is stating the obvious. As was stated earlier, "the Taiwanese are very good at copying but not inventing". Sorry, but there is very little inventing going on with most of the pit bikes, just copying.
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I would much prefer a machine that is built to a standard, as opposed to a price.
We all would, but none of us will actually buy them.... Everyone now sells disposable rubbish, because emphasising (actual) "quality" and "long life" is a hiding to nowhere in the modern world.
Modern manufacturing is about building stuff of adequate quality and being able to sell it at a competitive price while maximising your profits.
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I would much prefer a machine that is built to a standard, as opposed to a price. I also believe that lesser priced bikes that are aimed at a niche market can actually undermine the stability of an existing market rather than adding stability.
I suspect that many of the "niche market " you refer to are usually the knobs that you see riding those cheap crappers recklessly around parks & streets in suburbia giving people the shits & proper dirt bikers a bad rep.
Regards ,
Steve
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I would much prefer a machine that is built to a standard, as opposed to a price. I also believe that lesser priced bikes that are aimed at a niche market can actually undermine the stability of an existing market
While we are shipping minerals to China I am pretty sure the government is not going to worry too much about any niche market in the cross trade.
Besides would you describe BMW as built to a standard, yet the 450 engines are made in Taiwan which was definitely Chinese last time I was there.
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Being a motorcycle mechanic of around 38 years, and with plenty of time on my hands I like chinese bikes. My daughter bought one hot pink with a honda lookalike engine. the engine seems OK, the rest of the bike, when we go for a ride we take a big bucket and put all the parts in it that fall off when we get home we go through the bucket and match up bolts and fasteners with new or old good quality ones and then cause i have plenty of time ( i run a cattle property and work as a workshop foreman on local council) and love my trade i put it all back together again. after about 12 months of this we have a bike that is holding together ok , but we have had rain recently after a long dry spell, and now we can concentrate on the electrix.
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slakewell they do make a xr 80 copy made by shineray i bought one from ddr motorcycles $1395 brand new my wife and eldest daughter used to ride it 200cc 4 stroke had it for about 2 years very reliable never had valve clearance checked used it nearly every weekend never even changed a spark plug.when i sold it it hadn't been started for about 1 month 3rd kick it fired up and off it went.shineray company also have there own motorcross team that do very well on the asian circuit.
ps havent had internet since 16th of december storm knocked it out only got it back today.cheers gary
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I suspect that many of the "niche market " you refer to are usually the knobs that you see riding those cheap crappers recklessly around parks & streets in suburbia giving people the shits & proper dirt bikers a bad rep.
Regards ,
Steve
Yep Steve they would be part of the same crew that are giving all motorcyclists a bad name because many (note, not all) members of the public put us all together in the same group. Guilty by association. Some more members of the same crew can be viewed on Youtube at various times, riding like an indestructible lunatic and then posting it as though they have achieved something really significant.
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For a bit it under 3K these look pretty good, for the occasional ride a round the local mx track would probably be ideal. I spoke to a distributor recently about part prices and all pretty reasonable. A 290cc big bore upgrade including cylinder, piston etc was around $300.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-SHINERAY-XY250GY-2-DOHC-4-VALVE-DIRT-BIKE-MX-ENDURO-TRAIL-BIKE-THUMPSTER-PIT/261225218889?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27%26meid%3D8708903533580448666%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D1011%26rk%3D2%26sd%3D321150012721%26
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I've been reliably informed that there will soon be Chinese made Rickman Metisse frames available to the public.
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Now, now... :D
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For a bit it under 3K these look pretty good, for the occasional ride a round the local mx track would probably be ideal. I spoke to a distributor recently about part prices and all pretty reasonable. A 290cc big bore upgrade including cylinder, piston etc was around $300.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-SHINERAY-XY250GY-2-DOHC-4-VALVE-DIRT-BIKE-MX-ENDURO-TRAIL-BIKE-THUMPSTER-PIT/261225218889?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27%26meid%3D8708903533580448666%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D1011%26rk%3D2%26sd%3D321150012721%26
They do ADR'd enduro versions of those. Supposed to be pretty good: similar grunt to a TTR250, but with better handling and suspension.
The feedback is that they're pretty reliable.
I sometimes wonder if they'd be the modern DT1, if the market wasn't already flooded with 40 years of decent bikes.
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I've been reliably informed that there will soon be Chinese made Rickman Metisse frames available to the public.
:'(
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I've been reliably informed that there will soon be Chinese made Rickman Metisse frames available to the public.
mmm I think Ive heard this before , didn't there used to be a thread on this . ;D ???
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and the famous Lickman mongalese