OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: rohan on January 14, 2011, 10:09:23 pm
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I am currently having some spark problems and need some help.
I started the bike (after a rebuild) on the second kick and had strong spark for about 15 minutes before I lost the spark.
I have put a multimeter to the bike and get the following numbers. (For the record the coil is brand new but the stator and CDI are not)
•I put the multimeter to the stator only i.e. remove the CDI and read aound 50v when I kick it over.
•I hook up the CDI and put the multi on and get around 40V at the coil end of the CDI (with the coil not attached).
•When I hook up the coil and plug and kick it over I may be getting something but cannot feel a shock when holding the plug and cannot see any spark
•I measured the ohms across the coil and get 1.5 ohms across the two small leads at one end and about 11.8 kilo ohms from the high tensile lead to one of the small wires at the other end.
Any help would be appreciated
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I did some research and can answer my own question. A CDI multiplies the spark by a minimum of 10 fold. As such the input spark I am receiving at 50v should be coming out of the CDI at at least 500v, therefore I have a bodgie CDI.
The research I did also tells me the ohms I am reading across the coil is about right too, again must be bodgie CDI.
If Luke of Leigh are reading can you confirm what volts I should be reading from the PE400 stator? I have read quite a few good articles on rewinding a stator yourself and it doesn’t sound to hard so if my volts are down I may have a crack at that also.
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I am having a similar issue but I haven't checked mine out yet if you can find a manual buy it because it tells you all the specs you should have.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Clymer-Suzuki-PE175-PE250-PE400-Service-Manual-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4aa73f8a66QQitemZ320633539174QQptZMotorsQ5fManualsQ5fLiterature
This is a really good manual I have one of these as well as the factory pe400 manuals. :)
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You should find the PE400 workshop manual (which is better than the Cylmer) here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PEmotorcycles/ or on Lukes site which is linked from the forum. I Dont know spec off the top of my head. It will be the Primary coil or CDI thats the problem. Thats the main things that go wrong.
To rewind the primary coil you would need to get some wire the same thickness which is really thin and also rewind it the same amount of turns so its the same resistance and produces the same voltage. You can buy the coils brand new though. You might wanna check your flywheel too. If its weak on magnetism the spart will be poor. if it can hold up a 8 inch shifter on its tip then thats a good indication the magnets are ok.
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PE manuals are here:
http://cid-407d7ef0965d3991.office.live.com/browse.aspx/Pure%20Enduro/PE%20Owners%20Manuals
ping me a private mail if you want a DVD of the entire PE/RM skydrive.
it is becoming common to see the stator coils need rewinding. OldFart has a contact who can do them for a song.
I would be sending the stator off to get freshened-up before wasting time on anything else. CDI is encased in a block of gunk and is extremely unlikey to be the problem. As you have a new coil...
urm.. a simple thought - your stop button hasn't gunked itself ON ?
Luke
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Thanks Michael, Leigh, luke
No not the stop button made sure of that.
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There is a second coil Peter and it triggers the SCR to release the voltage saved in the capacitor.
You are measuring the exciter coil output and the voltage is fine.
What about the trigger coil ? Should be a low voltage. Usually under 5volts.
The trigger coil is laying on top of the exciter coil.
You could ask Frosty to measure the ohms on one of his and compare.
Mike :)
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To read the trigger voltage you need a peak voltage adaptor, which is a capacitor and diode. A analogue multi is handy also
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well according to the test section in the manual
Low speed coil - red/white - black/white - several hundred Ohms
High speed coil - black/red - red/white - several ten Ohms
Then if we look at the specs section at the back
B/R - R/W - 38-48 Ohms
R/W - B/w - 260-325 Ohms
Except for Canada/England (who knows why)
You dont hear of many trigger coils on PE's being faulty
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if you recall, Bob had terrible spark until he fixed his coils. Now he has fat blue spark.
Fabrice also had a pulsar coil failing, I seem to recall.
Definately worth getting donef the numbers are too low!
Luke
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Fabrice and Bobs were the primary coils not pulsar, well at least Fabrices was just the primary as i have his old one. His pulsar was ok though. Other guys in USA have just had to replace the primary. I got Fabrices old coil to unwind it and get the data on it so we can just wind them ourselves when the day comes that they are NLA as new items. Just looking at it now he has it marked 'HS' (high speed) 120 Ohms which is a high resistance but i reckon he had it marked wrong and it should be LS as the colours dont match my diagrame which are red/white - black/white for the primary but i to what the will admit i took that off a 250 stator and i had a vague suspiscion the 400's colour wires are swapped over on the 2 coils to what the 250 is. Either way you know 120 Ohms is no good.
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Using a digital multimeter to try and measure a stator output while kicking over is a hit and miss affair at best as the sampling rate of a digital meter is too slow and all but the most expensive meter do not meausre true RMS values. This is why you will get different readings on multiple attempts to take a measurement. Lozza is partly correct that a peak voltage attachment or option on the meter will help but the only way to be sure is to use an analog meter with peak hold which will give you an accurate true RMS reading.
It sounds like the trigger circuit but I assume since it is a new rebuild you have checked the earth system. Stator to cases, engine to frame, CDI unit to frame and coil to frame. Just a thought because I think we have all been caught out by the earth system at some time.
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I got Fluke 87V and its digital with True RMS capability. its my new toy i havent used yet though. For a $840 meter it better be good (thankfully i paid less than half that for it inc shipping, thanks to ebay and the good exchange rate ;)) Im going to get one of those clamp current meters too to measure higher currents. Next after that will be an ocilloscope.
Alot of people have been caught out with poor earths due to paint on a new build.
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The Fluke 87III or 87V are an excellent multimeters with true RMS readings the really difficult problem to overcome with readings at kick speed is the response time or sampling time. While 120ms is of no consequence when reading something which is running on relatively constant it is not really ideal for short duration rapidly changing AC voltage which is far from a sine wave.
I am not trying to say the Fluke 87 is anything but a great meter ( I have 2 one at work one at home :)) just that its strengths are not ideal for what is being measured.
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Just to confuse things more, I thought maybe it was a faulty plug so I got another one and put it in and presto big blue spark! I thought I would put my old plug in to confirm a dead plug and presto again - what the???.
I started reassembling all the bits and refitted tank etc kicked her over and wouldn’t start - no spark...frustrating.
That’s where she currently sits. I will double check all the earth points tonight and anything else I can think of. I have a feeling it’s a stupid little problem and are hesitant to spend $260 on a new CDI to find out it wasn’t that.
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Check wires coming out the coil, epecially the plug lead and check the plug cap. Very often i have found problems with plug leads and caps on old bikes causing ignition problems. Everyone chases other things then eventaually finds out its a plug cap or lead. try and bent/twist/reposition the lead and then check for spark. Also with a multi meter attach one end to plug cap and then the other to a tiny pin and prick the lead in a few places looking to see if theres breaks in the cable. More often that not all you need to do is cutt off the first 10mm of the cable and then re-connect the plug cap and it fixes it. Most restos i do get a new plug lead and cap.It can be harder to replace a lead on a jap type coil but more often that not a whole brand new coil is pretty cheap anyway. The PE coil is common to others across the board and not expensive to buy off ebay.
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Just to confuse things more, I thought maybe it was a faulty plug so I got another one and put it in and presto big blue spark! I thought I would put my old plug in to confirm a dead plug and presto again - what the???.
I started reassembling all the bits and refitted tank etc kicked her over and wouldn’t start - no spark...frustrating.
So it worked - FAT AND BLUE and then you reassembled and nothing? mmm.. I hear earth wires, connectors, plug cap. - there just isn't much else!
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Bought a 86 125 KTM a while back.
Real nice looking bike and in good condition too.
After about 10mins it stopped and restarted later when cooler.
Finally found the problem and it was different.
The previous owner had zip tied the kill switch wire to the top radiator hose and the wire was shorting when it got hot.
Found a funny little carbonised/chared patch where they touched.
I am thinking that no one found it and the owner finally got the shits and sold it.
Nice bike that one , cheap too.
Mike :)
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My 86 ktm isn't in to bad nick but missing the motor so it isn't going anywhere for a while. :)
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I mentioned the kill switch earlier. Does seem odd that everything works fine when apart.
Should be interesting to hear the final solution.
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Almost sounds like what Leith said......a broken plug lead...internally
Do you have another coil to try?
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One or two wire kill switch?
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when mine stuffed up i had a very weak spark. ended up being flywheel. so got coils re wound an new flywheel... now plenty of spark.
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Peter i just re-read my PE250 post
quote author=monaro308 link=topic=16312.msg163357#msg163357 date=1291346086]
Head down bum up time ;D
Had a play with the bike this morning and cleaned the thread up on the end of the crank and searched for a woodruff key.
Wanted to see if the flywheel would give any spark with a rooted magnet,bolted it all up and it did have a spark....not a strong one.
Gave it some fuel and a few kicks...nutting!!
Just the occassional big backfire :o.So i tried an old RM coil,same again.
Then i went through my box of PE175 stuff and tried the whole magneto set up and flywheel....same deal just to see if i had spark (i'm sure Luke said you can modify the 175 plate holes to use on 250's,i'll read up on that later).
No backfire with the 175 set up but has spark.
Pulled the carby off and cleaned and reset the float levels and tried again...same.
Refitted the 250 mag and at least got a backfire again....so i tried the RM cdi off the alphabet bike and after a few kicks it roared into life!!! and idled pretty much straight away ;D
At least i know it runs now,so i'll figure out what to do with the electrics next and may have to run the 175 set up as the 250 flywheel is bastard to find (am i correct Luke and Leith)??
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yeah I think that you have to redrill the holes at 90 degrees from the original two to make the 175 one work on the 250. ;)
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Michael, i was refering to the cdi change as i had a weak-average spark and backfire until i changed the cdi and it fired up on the broken magnet 250 f/wheel.
PE175 82 onwards (haven't checked T,X)electrics bolts straight on and runs ok on the 250,but still needs to be checked with a dial guage and timing light after checking mine as it showed a few degrees off the 175 TDC mark.
cheers..mario
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I am very surprised the CDI was faulty. I have taken a half-dozen apart (a slow tedious process) and they are extremely well protected.
As to fitting the 'early' or 'small' stator and rotor, absolutely true. 33% less mass, but they were fine for the 250 B/C/N and all 175's.
The PE400 ran at 17BTDC, so grab the ( stator, rotor and CDI ) from a PE175T/X - they ran at 17.5 and are still available all over the place. I had a PE400 with all that dropped in and ran fine.
Luke
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Back around 85 I had a pe250 t which ran fine for the test run before buying ,then after i bought it.Its performance changed from good starting and performance,to hard starting and slugish running which seemed to variy from one extreme to the other.Changed pulsar coil problem gone,long enough to trade it in.
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yes, PE/RM pulsar coils are the usual suspects, way before the CDI.
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Probably not on the 400 though. I know quite a few people who had been after 400 CDI's.
I think the problem is the capacitors in the CDI because the they dont last for ever, but the other components are ok, so at some point in their life the CDI's will stop working because of the capacitors. Its just like how a battery doesn't last for ever.
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That's true and the 400 probably used more electrolytics than the earlier versions. They also tend to die faster if left unused, I read somewhere! Have not dissected a 400 CDI yet.
Luke
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Buy a chinese CDI on ebay and try it.
Nothing to loose.
Max price is $18 although some are $8.
Was mucking around and plugged one into a MSD Husky ignition as a matter of interest and guess what.
Also have tried a DT CDI with the same result.
Also bought a ALTRONICS kit CDI and it worked too. ( $18+postage and a bit of assembly)
The hardest part was finding a plug to suit the Chinese CDI.
Should also be able to rewind the PE pulsar/trigger coil with a bit of patience.
These things appear to be magic but are reasonably simple .
Genuine is good but cheap also cuts it.
Mike :)
UPDATE ---> NA the chinese ones DON,T work on PE,s bummer.
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You can get them through suzuki for $360 :o I need one if not two.
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The CDI off one of these sorta works on a PE sorta.
Sparks good but seems a bit erattic.
Wierd sometimes sparks real good sometimes not at all.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/78mm_generator_.jpg)
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The future is here. That's the my new stator/rotor assemby not a pit bike model Mike. Fully programmable, runs clock or anti clock, 35W output etc etc etc
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/042.jpg)
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The future is here. That's the my new stator/rotor assemby not a pit bike model Mike. Fully programmable, runs clock or anti clock, 35W output etc etc etc
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/042.jpg)
Sweet Lozza.
Get back onto the guy and get a Husky taper machined into the flywheel and a Husky fitting backing plate and make a FORTUNE.
Just remember me when you do. :)
Mike
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All tapers are pretty much the same, just the size varies, which is why it's better to machine it to the crank. Same goes for the backing plate making adaptor plates is far easier.
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how much
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Can i see a picture with the flywheel off the stator so i can see the coils?
There is a guy in Canada on the PE forum running one of those German Power Dynamos specifically made for the PE and puts out about 100watts. Said its heaps better that the original magneto. He runs all 12volt lights and one of those digital trail tech computers too on his PE400.
(http://www.powerdynamo.biz/deu/systems/7227/statview.jpg)
(http://www.powerdynamo.biz/deu/systems/7227/rotview.jpg)
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Leith,is that the original PE250 flywheel?
That does look good for running strong lighting....any idea on cost?
cheers..mario
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circa €250 euro by the looks of it.
http://www.powerdynamo.biz/deu/systems/lists/suzuki.php
there is a guy in NSW listed as having PowerDynamo stuff.
http://www.powerdynamo.biz/eng/partner.htm
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Mario, its a complete kit, all new parts. They say one is 70w AC and one is 100W DC, but i think they are only saying that because thats what the requlators are. The stators would be the same i reckon, but to be on then safe side i would get the DC one then you know you have the option. If that stators putting out 100W DC then it will easily put out more than that in AC before rectification, probably closer to 150W AC if you use your own AC regulator. A 225W Tymapanium reg are the go and will easily handle it, Baja 1000 proven since the 70's :). It really depend on what you want to run as to what regulator you use or if you want DC or AC or a circuit of each. I Probably will eventually get one of these kits for myself, i just wish there was more flexibility with the CDI unit, but the guy who has one of them on a 400 reckons its good as it is. You have the option to request the amount of advance you want if you tell them before ordering. The electrical parts are made by http://www.vape.cz and Power Dynamo designs the kits from Vape components. Ive used a few of them but not on PE's. I will be ordering one for an Adler soon.
Will be cheaper if you just order it your self.
There is a UK dealer for them too.
Most people will recognise these units as the 'MZB' ignitions which they are. Re-shuffling of companies now see them being called 'Power Dynamos'. A lot of Husky guys use them too.
(http://www.powerdynamo.biz/deu/systems/7227/7227dpack.jpg)
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Thanks Leith,that is a very nice looking unit and something to consider if i ever wanted to rego the PE250T.
I used to ride my 175 everywhere on the road,knobbies and all and the lighting was more "to be seen" than "to see" :D
cheers...mario
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how much
Depends on exchange rate but around the $550 mark machined to suit your flywheel. USB interface cable for programming(there is also a handheld programmer) is about $60 and software is free.
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USB interface cable for programming(there is also a handheld programmer) is about $60
WTF! a USB cable for $60? What on earth is it made from? platinum coated with gold?
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As a matter of interest, is the flywheel a PE replacement ???
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it appears to be a complete replacement. Stator and flywheel are NOT original items.
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USB interface cable for programming(there is also a handheld programmer) is about $60
WTF! a USB cable for $60? What on earth is it made from? platinum coated with gold?
;D No but I'm sure it could be arranged. PC programming came after the hand held programmer. The cost is in adapting the USB to the 10 pin connector common to all the cdi's, the 10 pin connector had been used from the beginning , the cost was higher to incorporate the small end of the usb into the cdi.
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Yes the flywheel is brand new. You cant use it with stock PE stator though. it only goes with the kit and includes, the coil/cdi, regulator, stator and what ever else is in the photo. The regulator is unecessarily big but does fit under the tank, but you could use your own much smaller one. It might be worth while to double check the taper with them due to this comment from the guy in Canada who has one
It makes spark from a low kicking rpm but it runs on fixed timing, again I can't compare but the 400 seems to run well with it.
It also has enough amps to have a 60w headlight, 23 stop, 20 flashers, running all at once at about 2000 rpm.
The only problem I have had was that I received mine with a flywheel that had a bigger cone than my crankshaft, at first I tought it was a difference in crank taper from 250 ( for wich the system was sold) and the 400 so had a taper sleeve machined to adapt.
I later learned through this forum that it not so and that all 250 and 400 should have the same taper, so mine must have been a mistake at the factory but still I would double check if I were to order one.
Going by what the manufacturers say their ignition is to far superior than the stock suzuki one. Ive put 3 on bikes before and the owners had never had any complaints.
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circa €250 euro by the looks of it.
http://www.powerdynamo.biz/deu/systems/lists/suzuki.php
there is a guy in NSW listed as having PowerDynamo stuff.
http://www.powerdynamo.biz/eng/partner.htm
Oh man that guy in NSW is THE Paul Rooney , husqvarna extrodinare.
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Its confirmed, faulty CDI. Just put a brand new one on and BIG FAT BLUE SPARK :)
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Do the brand new CDI look the same as how they used to make them or are they in a wizz bang plastic container now?
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Same as the old ones!
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2010-6/1357440/18022011408.jpg)
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I have to get one. :)