OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: vmx42 on October 21, 2010, 08:30:12 am
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I am a bit disappointed by confirmation that JB [and his aussie crew] will follow Rossi to Ducati.
It would have been 100 times more interesting to see if Burgess could have guided Ben Spies to the MotoGP title?
And it would have been 1000 times more interesting to see if Rossi could win the title without Jeremy?
OK, so they have maintained the status quo [and if Rossi wins on the Duc then so be it], but if they had split up it would have answered the question once and for all. Mick Doohan still says he made a mistake by not going to Yamaha and proving that it was his talent that made the difference, not the Honda.
I don't doubt Rossi's talent, but I would love to be able to quantify the 'Burgess Factor'.
For my 2 cents, I think Rossi would struggle without him…
VMX42
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I think you need to define "struggle".
I think Doohan still would have won and so would Rossi- how much they won is open to conjecture.
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I have no doubt that JB was a huge influence on Vales career in his early days in the elite classes, but not so much now.
If the bike is close to competitive he'll do the rest.
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he'll be a master polisher by years end, as Rossi can go directly to Preziosi no need for 'intermediaries' to translate this or that.
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Yeah Craig, struggle is a relative term.
he'll be a master polisher by years end, as Rossi can go directly to Preziosi no need for 'intermediaries' to translate this or that.
All the more reason I would have liked it if he had stayed at Yamaha and worked with Spies, then we could have some evidence, now we can only speculate. It could have been a great story… Perhaps we should lobby Dorna [to make him stay :D] as it could enhance the entertainment of MotoGP more than any of their recent dodgy changes.
My guess is that Burgess is a bigger influence than he is credited, you don't get that lucky, that often.
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Yeah Craig, struggle is a relative term.
he'll be a master polisher by years end, as Rossi can go directly to Preziosi no need for 'intermediaries' to translate this or that.
All the more reason I would have liked it if he had stayed at Yamaha and worked with Spies, ......
And that is exactly why Vale made sure GB went with him ;). I think you'll find despite the Clown Prince Mr Nice Guy image Vale is one of the most savy, politically aware, manipulating, Psych-Out animals in the pits.
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Vale is one of the most savy, politically aware, manipulating, Psych-Out animals in the pits.
He's also one of the best guys for setting up a bike since KR and Sheene. If you've listened to Casey recently you would probably have reached the conclusion that he doesn't have a clue how to set up a bike. Everytime he's taken a pole he said something like: "we just kind of stumbled on the right setup". I don't know whether he's just being glib but his results suggest he isn't.
Watch Lorenzo go backwards next year without Vale to set up the bike for him. Pedrosa isn't much better.
P.S. For the Stoner fans: I'm not anti-Stoner. Indeed I think of the grid he's probably the most talented on it, it's just that guys who can set up a bike properly and regularly are rare. Hailwood couldn't set up a bike. He rode whatever it was at ten tenths. I doubt Doohan could set up a bike. Of the Aussies I suspect Curruthers was one of the few that could. Peter Williams was superb at it, so were Saarinen and Newcombe. But few today can do it.
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Surely your joking? Lorenzo's bike has been on rails and a long way in front of Rossi all year, lets not forget Rossi wanted the pit wall and complained about data sharing, giving the impression(to anyone who cared to listen) that Jorge ran his settings when in fact Rossi was very keen to use Lornzo's settings just as often.Ramon Forcada has tweeked the rear of the M1 this year, Lorenzo's bike just drives off corners sooooo much better than Rossi's.
Riders are not required to 'set up' the machine, they just give comprehensive feedback to suspension and engine engineers, THEY make the changes.The rider is only required to ride the bike to their maximum ability the engineers job to provide what the rider needs.
Pedrosa? The RC212V was a bucking bronco at the begining of the season and has evolved to look on rails(the frame rigidity has being updated constantly) , that didn't happen by accident the rider told the factory which development path to follow.
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Vale is one of the most savy, politically aware, manipulating, Psych-Out animals in the pits.
He's also one of the best guys for setting up a bike since KR and Sheene. If you've listened to Casey recently you would probably have reached the conclusion that he doesn't have a clue how to set up a bike. Everytime he's taken a pole he said something like: "we just kind of stumbled on the right setup". I don't know whether he's just being glib but his results suggest he isn't.
Watch Lorenzo go backwards next year without Vale to set up the bike for him. Pedrosa isn't much better.
P.S. For the Stoner fans: I'm not anti-Stoner. Indeed I think of the grid he's probably the most talented on it, it's just that guys who can set up a bike properly and regularly are rare. Hailwood couldn't set up a bike. He rode whatever it was at ten tenths. I doubt Doohan could set up a bike. Of the Aussies I suspect Curruthers was one of the few that could. Peter Williams was superb at it, so were Saarinen and Newcombe. But few today can do it.
Wow up there Big Boy. I think you underestimate Casey. Casey would give Vale a very close run in the Head Games stakes. One of the features of Casey's raise was that he wasn't intimidated by Vale despite Vale's best efforts (at the time when he had smashed Sate and Max with the Head Game).
I think Casey plays down how well he is setting the bike up. I think he purposely has Vale and other wondering 'how much it is the bike' and 'how much it is Casey'. And having them wondering and being even a little bit distracted is the name of the game.
Gee, if Casey is so bad at setting up a bike how is he consistently 1-2 seconds a lap faster than his team mates - both in practice and racing. Either he is good at setting up a bike or he is outrageously by far the best rider out there.
We'll have a bteer idea this time next year (bring it on). You might notice the Head Games have already started - and who started them? Why it was Vale of course.
Vale to the Italian press "Casey is not getting the most out of the Ducati". (implying Casey is presently a nobody failure and 'I will next year')
Casey's retort; (laughs) "The Ducati is at the end of it's development cycle and there is no money to further develop it. If you can do better next year, do it. But Ducati just blew it's year's budget paying your wages so good luck". (Implying; I'm abandoning a sinking ship and I'm going to the richest 'hungerest' team, with the fastest most underdeveloped bike at the right time - beat me if you can).
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I think Casey plays down how well he is setting the bike up. I think he purposely has Vale and other wondering 'how much it is the bike' and 'how much it is Casey'. And having them wondering and being even a little bit distracted is the name of the game.
I don't know. As far as I can work out Casey either "on" or "off" which suggests (to me) that he's struggling setting up the bike. Sure, he could be doing this deliberately.
The other "fudge" factor is: who are Bridgestone going to nominate as their primary team? Will they stay with Yamaha or follow Rossi again? When Casey won his championship the Michelins were crap and Ducati was Bridgestones primary team. When Rossi fired Michelin Bridgestone nominated Yamaha as their primary team. That means the tyres are developed with the Yamaha in mind and everyone else must just take what they get.
*edit* Lets play (mind) games. Let's assume that Bridgestone go with Rossi to Ducati. Will they be able to supply a tyre that suits the Carbon Fibre frame? Previously they were supplying for the trellis frame. Is it the CF frame that is causing Caseys inconsistant results?
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Riders are not required to 'set up' the machine, they just give comprehensive feedback to suspension and engine engineers, THEY make the changes.
Garbage in = garbage out.
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I think Casey plays down how well he is setting the bike up. I think he purposely has Vale and other wondering 'how much it is the bike' and 'how much it is Casey'. And having them wondering and being even a little bit distracted is the name of the game.
I don't know. As far as I can work out Casey either "on" or "off" which suggests (to me) that he's struggling setting up the bike. Sure, he could be doing this deliberately.
The other "fudge" factor is: who are Bridgestone going to nominate as their primary team? Will they stay with Yamaha or follow Rossi again? When Casey won his championship the Michelins were crap and Ducati was Bridgestones primary team. When Rossi fired Michelin Bridgestone nominated Yamaha as their primary team. That means the tyres are developed with the Yamaha in mind and everyone else must just take what they get.
*edit* Lets play (mind) games. Let's assume that Bridgestone go with Rossi to Ducati. Will they be able to supply a tyre that suits the Carbon Fibre frame? Previously they were supplying for the trellis frame. Is it the CF frame that is causing Caseys inconsistant results?
I think you are overstating the importance of tyres.
You can have the world best, most exclusive, tyres on a pogo stick and go nowhere. The competition has been refined to such a degree the winning bike is a complete package; rider skills, rider feedback, good crew, responsive factory/supplier and team management/organisation/morale. Brilliance in one area can compensate but the best team will win most consistently. You would have to be exceptionally well informed to pick one reason why a team/rider wins or loses.
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The RC212V was a bucking bronco at the begining of the season and has evolved to look on rails(the frame rigidity has being updated constantly) , that didn't happen by accident the rider told the factory which development path to follow.
Thats spot on and highlights the contrast with Casey and Ducati. If Honda had produced a pig of a bike like this years Duke, honda would have had ten different frame upgrades by now. All Ducati have done is try a different swingarm, moved the handlebars and a couple of sets of forks ::) Ducati just aren't spending any money for the last 3 years for whatever reason. I can't beleive Casey has even won a race on that POS, if you've taped any races this year have a good look at the front wheel when he is at transition prior to the apex on slower turns, the bike is constantly trying to tuck in...it looks like an early 80's Honda with the 16 inch front wheel, only one guy could ride that bike too.
I guess time will tell if Casey can set up a bike next year when he has the support and 2 competent riders on the same to mark himself against.
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AMCN had a good article on how honda have developed the RC212 this year, major amounts of stiffening to the swing arm & carbon tape/inserts on the frame with Pedrosa getting all the improvements first with the others having to wait.
Any chance that will change next year or will Stoner be having to take the hand me downs?
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AMCN had a good article on how honda have developed the RC212 this year, major amounts of stiffening to the swing arm & carbon tape/inserts on the frame with Pedrosa getting all the improvements first with the others having to wait.
Any chance that will change next year or will Stoner be having to take the hand me downs?
Let's just say I think Pedrosa falling over and badly breaking his collar bone, and Casey's winning streak (and expect more - he has the motivation - thank his team, have everyone else thinking in the off season 'how will they better Casey', and impress Honda management) could not have come at a better time for Casey.
I don't think Pedro will be back to his best form this season and I think his confidence will have a large dent in it for the start of next season. If I was Honda I know who I would back. When Casey 'streets' Pedro and Divy at the first test the die will be cast ;).
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Any chance that will change next year or will Stoner be having to take the hand me downs?
I am sure Casey is well aware of the 'Alberto Puig' factor at Team Honda. ;)
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Any chance that will change next year or will Stoner be having to take the hand me downs?
I am sure Casey is well aware of the 'Alberto Puig' factor at Team Honda. ;)
....not to forget the Repsol/Spanish factor.
But Honda has been in a winning drought so long they will back the best prospect of winning. Casey has to 'hit the ground running' in those first few tests and take advantage of any Pedrossa confidences or injury worries, and he'll win the season there and then.
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Vale is one of the most savy, politically aware, manipulating, Psych-Out animals in the pits.
He's also one of the best guys for setting up a bike since KR and Sheene.
I think Kenny had more than a clue, especially when guided by Kel. Sheene spent all his post-race commentary career rubbishing KR's set-up abilities, eg : "Roberts could be accused of anything except having a clue how to set up a bike " and "Roberts couldn't sort out a sock drawer"... I fel he was incurably bitter as a result of KR's arrival in Europe for the '78 season, and spoiling Sheene's perfect world...
Watch Lorenzo go backwards next year without Vale to set up the bike for him.
Can't agree with that one Tim, I think he and his team are on to it. We shall see : interesting season on the cards... ;)
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I don't know. As far as I can work out Casey either "on" or "off" which suggests (to me) that he's struggling setting up the bike. Sure, he could be doing this deliberately.
The other "fudge" factor is: who are Bridgestone going to nominate as their primary team? Will they stay with Yamaha or follow Rossi again? When Casey won his championship the Michelins were crap and Ducati was Bridgestones primary team. When Rossi fired Michelin Bridgestone nominated Yamaha as their primary team. That means the tyres are developed with the Yamaha in mind and everyone else must just take what they get.
*edit* Lets play (mind) games. Let's assume that Bridgestone go with Rossi to Ducati. Will they be able to supply a tyre that suits the Carbon Fibre frame? Previously they were supplying for the trellis frame. Is it the CF frame that is causing Caseys inconsistant results?
Maybe some facts wouldn't go astray here.
MotoGP is approaching it's second full season of control Bridgestone tyres.The tyres get made in 1 batch at the beginning of each year and are alloctaed at random.Every rider has the same tyre, there is no 'primary team'
Michelin were BANNED from flying in specificaly tailored tyres overnight at GP's when Michelin stopped that practice the tyre performance went south.
Rossi never 'fired' Michelin, he said he was going off to drive rally cars unless he got Bridgestone tyre's Dorna kowtowed and forced Bridgestone to supply Rossi tyres. Pedrosa/Puig sacked Michelin after the travesty at Laguna Seca 08.
Stoner's front end drama's are down to the 2010 52mm Ohlins TR forks (TR for through rod) as soon as he switch back to the 48mm 09 TTX fork the poles, the race wins and fastest laps quickly followed, so join the dots on that.
In Sepang 09 when torrential rain hit the track an hour before the GP, which left the entire field guessing set up on wet tyres without even riding a lap, Casey Stoner finished the length of the straight ahead. Must have been a fluke................ ::)
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Lozza, how dare you ruin a perfectly good thread with FACTS ::)
P.S. I had forgetten that the Bridgestones are controlled tyres which does kind of shoot down my hypotheses. Kind of...err....
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The tyres would have to favour 1 type of bike slightly or are they just designed to a spec provided by dorna with no testing done other than at the races