OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: 211kawasaki on January 11, 2008, 08:56:56 pm
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So whats so wrong with 96db? get yourselves all stirred up about it folks, if you can have 96 posts on why a YZ will only run for 5 minutes then this should be the biggie of all time. Help out your fellow rider and throw your best argument in the ring!
Also why should the Historic RR guys get 102 and we don't? Whats mak'n them so special with their nancy boy leathers and slick tires hu! :P
DT
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It's imperative that we gain a 102 decibel limit. To achieve 96 decibels in an air cooled bike that was built during a period when 125db was the norm is a big ask. To quieten the old bikes to 96db the bike would lose quite a bit of it's period integrity due to having to use modern style silencers and in some cases double walled expansion chambers. The bikes will not only suffer in performance, they will also lose a lot of their unique period appearance. If 102db is good enough for our road racing brothers it's good enough for us.
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How many VMX Clubs are out there and how many members are available to sign their name to a petition?
I have no legal experience but I'm aware precedents go a long way in determining rulings.
If a precedent has been set by the Historic Road Racing fraternity then it should be a relatively simple matter for another branch of the sport to achieve parity.
I'm sure there are forum mambers with feet in both Road Racing and VMX camps?
How did the RR boys get their excemption and who can source this information?
The RR fraternity aren't special, but they have their heads screwed on correctly.
I'm yet to join a Club and I don't claim to know enough about the technical aspects of the noise debate, but I do know the value of the 'squeaky wheel gets the oil'.
We need to make a COLLECTIVE noise.
Can the Clubs/this forum agree on the wording of a document and make it available for all to sign?
Does anyone here have previous experience for this sort of thing?
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I agree with you are saying , but perhaps a little thought . It is OK to keep the 102 or more, but keep in mind where the MX tracks are situated. Isn't the closeness to townships the reason for closing a lot of tracks ? Are we not cutting our own throat by pressing on with high noise levels ? Or can we lift the level to 102 but put the necessary noise barriers in place around the tracks . ( Dirtwalls , Trees etc). Lets say you live next to a open track and work shiftwork and while you try to sleep you hear a constant braap, braap, you would not be impressed , especially if you had no sleep and you are not into bikes. Its only a thought I Had. Of course if you are out in nowhere it makes no difference 96 or 102. Thats why believe to retain the 102 , so we don't destroy the classics but improve the surroundings of the tracks . The more trees the better ( carbon trade , sound , vision ,anti erosion, shade and dustbarriers). That should be good for the big picture for sure. 8) ;D
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Here is great explanation of noise or Sound Pressure Levels(SPL) from Sound engineer Chris ACT on the PCRA forum.The real drama is the dB scale in NOT linear.
http://postclassicracing.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2606&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105
Air cooled jobbies have more mechanical noise and no fairings to deaden the sound.HOWEVER it isn't hard to comply with a 96dB A exhaust noise.
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I think you are right Lozza , I remember when KTM tried to roadregister the first GS in 1978 . The 98 levels where achieved by the muffler , but it was still to loud to be passed. So what the importers had to do , was fitting a padded fearing hanging from the tank down passed the barrel and that did the trick.
Testing was done 6 meters away from the road and bike had to pass through with 80 kmh., thats how it was measured.
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I have to admit I was already on the hunt for a new exhaust late last year to bring my bike inline with the new limit. I am still on the hunt as most supplies cannot tell me what DB the pipes average out to. So far from what I've seen and heard it seems Circle F and Vintage Iron pipes may scrape through but there is not a snowballs hope in hell my stock TM or RM pipes will come in under the limit. It's a bother but, my bikes are far from the noisiest so others have a worse problem than I. I think it just plain sucks when the exhausts are std issue from the factory. Fair enough if you want to run DG or some other brand but why should we detract from the originality when after all..it is 'Vintage' racing. The powers that be really need to pull their head out of the sand and look at the real picture! So far as I can see this is dead set kick in the guts for VMX from the controlling body..maybe this governing body is the issue that should be addressed! Why pick on the minority..cause it's easier no doubt! What's good for one is good for all..where's that petition and can someone loan me a pen! This whole thing sucks! >:( angry ant has spoken :P
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Me and my new GS a few moons ago
[attachment deleted by admin]
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It is OK to keep the 102 or more, but keep in mind where the MX tracks are situated. Isn't the closeness to townships the reason for closing a lot of tracks ? Are we not cutting our own throat by pressing on with high noise levels ?
I think township encroachment is to blame for many noise complaints, when I arrived in Perth (1988) the principle riding area was well out of town and bothered no-one. Now they have built new suburbs in and around it forcing it to be shrunk to a ridiculously small size and they have talked about closing it because of noise complaints (plus land demand) Even perths only road track (Barbagello raceway) may close as suburban encroachment draws near and soon Pinjar dirt riding area as well (its across the road from Barbagello).
Having dedicated tracks/riding areas with a noise buffer zone surrounding them (plenty of trees and hedges help) would eliminate most noise complaints and offering those small foam earplugs to spectators would reduce the human impact as well. In Perth there once was a great speedway track at the Claremont showgrounds and all competitors had to fit these huge hideous mufflers to their machines to compete there but persistant complaints and a weak council eventually forced early closure befor a replacement venue was ready (which nearly killed the sport here in Perth) The new venue (next to a drag strip) was in the isolated area of Kwinana but new developments down there may mean its eventual closure too!!
Where we like to ride is fast becoming where people want to live (quietly) and even 96DdB may become untenable. We need to protect our sport, our machines period authenticity and ourselves from these regulations by seeking a dispensation for VMX. In the 1980's in NZ they switched from the standard number plates to large rectangular ones half the size of an esky lid which wouldn't fit many older machines so a dispensation for fitment of old style plates was allowed as machines could not be modified to carry the new plates (they would hit the rear tyre!!)
Speaking personally I would loathe to "HAVE TO" fit some bulky baffling system to my bikes, even if it were designed to look vintage. 102dB is achievable and sustainable for most bikes and perhaps the warning signs and notices at the tracks could be updated to say "Motorcycle racing is dangerous and loud too"
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Claremont Speedway closed down?!
I was based up the road at Karrakatta and regularly attended the speedway during my time in Perth; what a shame.
It was the first time I'd seen locals charge spectators to park vehicles on their yards and footpaths.
Anyways, the noise thing; I agree urban encroachment plays a big part in all this.
I understand my local MX track at Stanmore is in the last months of its Lease; ADMCC has used the land since '77 or so.
Their former track at Wolffdene was nabbed by Council for similar reasons.
A large estate has recently developed across the road from Stanmore - and that was always going to be the beginning of the end.
Personally I wouldn't buy a block of land next to a Raceway or an industrial estate...
Stanmore was originally at the end of the earth; one or two Kilometres from the highway and surrounded by nothing but dense bush (and Bullens Lion Park) for miles!
The worst corrugated and pitted single lane dirt road took the hardy few to a day of rocky and dusty motocross.
But now the suburbs have arrived and the track (I'm led to believe) is off to Jacobs Well; a large sugar cane producing area where it's rumoured another Airport will one day be built.
Solutions like planting thick vegetation will assist to a degree.
Planting the volume required is a lot of work and it takes years and years for any worthwhile effect.
Stanmore remains surrounded by trees - but obviously not enough of them!
Perhaps getting a rein on the legislation is the way to slow things down while the trees grow?
These classic old machines were built and remain true to their era.
I still believe the precedent set by the Historical Road Racers gives us good leverage to stand our ground.
If they've done it what possible argument can there be for VMX to be singled out?
As previously mentioned, the Grand Prix and Indy Cars noise is ear splittingly loud; it actually hurts after a short exposure.
These rods are brand spanking new and continue to evolve, so how the hell do they (legally) justify special treatment?
There are plenty of precedents for the wise to stand on.
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Well Wombat that is good point to put them on par. Because those old bikes usually hade a dual purpose in their days (MX and Roadrace). Does that mean the same bike with nobbys can have 96 and when you change to roadtyres it can have 102 ? If racing has to be castrated , then it should apply across the board , one would think.
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so do I take it that 96db is OK?
Regardless of opinion 102db is a better compliance base than 96, remember that an increase of only 6db is equivalent to a perception of noise doubled so it stands to reason that we are talking noise half what it is now and I doubt 50% of the bikes are 102 now let alone 96db.
96DB is an burden that VMX can ill afford, thanks for Lozza for the link but there has to be more opinion out there in factual support of the 102 db we seek. Remember that now you ARE REQUIRED to have your bike at 96db, not some time in the future. The idea is to get acceptance of an exemption of the 96db requirement for the Tassies them move to alter the GCRs to show 102db for VMX. Why should we make it hard for ourselves, I don't want to bolt on 2 feet and 5kg of power sapping muffler on my bikes I want them to look and sound like the period within an achievable noise restriction; that being 102db.
DT
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I been pushing this 102 db barrow ifor months in every post, and got pooned in the Noise emmsions post amoung others> Can someone who knows the system write up a petition or motion i can get signed at my club and give to my MA rep or whoever ?
Im a noob when it come to paperwork, but if someone here with the "knowledge" of the MA nepatism can give me something i can get signed please post it here so those of use with an interest in moving this Niose thing up a level, can get somthing happening, we keep talking about the same stuff. The time has come the Walrus said :
ooo and also if bikes need testng at scrutineering. The problem that you aren't allowed to start the bikes until after 9am at most circuits. Imagine how long it will take to test all bikes after 9 am. you ll get 3 races all day then its home time. :-\
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Sadly, all of these arguments are preaching to the converted. Noise limits are ultimately aimed at keeping the general public happy. The general public doesn't care if a bike was made in 2007 or 1967, for the most part they don't want to listen to it.
It isn't fair, but encroaching population means that a lot of motocross tracks are getting closer and closer to urban development all the time. I hope I'm wrong, but I belive a 96db limit is inevitable.
No doubt the road racers are worried. If we end up with a 96db limit, then it's only a matter of time before MA says "well, the VMX boys have been meeting 96db for awhile now, so you can too."
Tex
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Umm have I done the "Wrong thing "bothering to write myself to MA and the committee? Basically I had to try something not just gripe and whine ,then ask a "Club or something" to write something for me to sign. Look if you cannot find "a petition" try doing the same. I know 100 \200/300 or more letters to the same people on the same agenda ,gets right in their face and is not easily thrown aside like one or two neatly stapled sheets.................. GO on try it! Stop finding lazy half arsed excuses like what is MA address , (F*****g well look it up!!!!!! OK I have put it at the bottom now for you.. ) it is to hot, my dog has fleas, camels eat aardvarks etc etc !!do it or lose it.
What say we start a thread that reads something. "A petition to MA in urgency to review noise limits in regards to Vintage Motocross , The current regulations from 1/1/2008 do not take into account that these machines were not designed to meet in anyway the 96db limits, and will lead to the loss therefore of classic machines ,competitors and the viewing public of this warmly received branch of Historic racing." ? Tim 754
Now I just printed that out ,signed it and tomorrow I am posting it to MA. Tim
Contacts MA VMX Commissioners Classic Motocross
David Tanner (Chair)
Mark Austin
Stuart Muntz
IF you would like to voice your opinions or register feedback for a particular Commission, you can do so by contacting Ross Martin from MA (Manager - Commissions and Committees).
Ross can be contacted either via email ([email protected]) or by telephone (03) 9684 0504.
MA postal address PO Box134 South Melbourne Vic 3205
Fax 03 96840555
PH 03 96840500
email [email protected]
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How is the noise level measured?
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ok TIMBO - I SENT YOUR EMAIL ( WITH CHANGES TO BOTH EMAIL ADRESSES, THERE 3 IN THE PILE NOW. i KEEP IT AS A TEMPLaTE I THINK AND RE: EMAIL IT FORTNIGHTLY :o)
How come mssr: tanner and austin are not posting in this furom there thoughts or actions in this endouvour ? as active forum members it would be nice for you guys to weigh in on this discussion......
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Here is what I have sent in Email form, I have also sent a snail mail the same to MA post box. Feel free to use or modify if you want Tim. But use your own name!!!!!!!!! Thanks.
"A petition to MA and the VMX and Speedway Commissioners in urgency to review noise limits in regards to Vintage Motocross and Classic Speedway, Solos and Sidecars , The current regulations from 1/1/2008 do not take into account that these machines were not designed to meet "in anyway" the 96db limits, and will lead to the loss therefore of classic machines ,competitors and the viewing public of these very warmly received branches of Historic racing." Both have more than fair rights to Historic Road Racings higher allowed noise limit of 102Db ! as per Manual of Motorcycle sports??
Thank you yours faithfully and with respect Tim Derrick
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YOu missed the bit about dirt trackers :O) ???
MIne basically said ALL pre 77 bikes regardless of disciplines should have an outside limit of 102 DB, although all competitors had volunterilyagreed to continually endevour to get them as low as possible on a continuous basis, the 102db would be the outer threrashold for all classics, due to the nature of air cooling and competion design was not made available to safely and confidently meet TODAYs lower levels in 2008. In that chroniogical historic period any thing less than 102 would comprimise saftey, reliabilty and such of those historic machines and they would be lost to active racing forever.
any way mine continued as much the same, but stated the lose of competitors to the class, loss of revenue to MA if a seperate outlaw Classic register was formed like NZ and so on.
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So if you are only allowed to fit parts from that period and you are not allowed to use modified parts outside that era and the bikes have to be standard then if they were louder than 96 Dba in 1975 then how do you comply... me tinks soemone did'nt think this one out... ::)
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http://How come mssr: tanner and austin are not posting in this furom there thoughts or actions in this endouvour ? as active forum members it would be nice for you guys to weigh in on this discussion......
Dave and Mark are indeed working on this right at this moment. Not every detail of this proposal needs to pass your scrutiny Freaky.
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Here's the email I sent Ross Martin at MA.
Ross, as a Classic Motocross and Dirt Track competitor I would like to voice my concern at the introduction of a 96db noise limit for 2008. I'm sure you're aware that these machines were designed and manufactured in a day when noise regulation wasn't a priority. Being air cooled and featuring exhaust systems never designed for the silencing needed to comply with such a limit, I feel that the historical integrity of the machinery being used to compete in Classic Motocross and Dirt Track will be severely compromised both mechanically and visually.
I believe that the 102 db that our Classic Road Racing brothers are allowed should be a blanket limit for all classic divisions, no matter the dicipline. It is irrational to expect one faction of the classic movement to have a 102db limit and a 96db limit for the other.
By introducing a 96db limit MA is certain to drive competitors away from motorcycling due to their machines not being able to comply with an unfair noise limit. I would have assumed that MA was in the business of attracting new riders and machinery to motorcycle racing but this current regulation proves that the opposite is in fact true.
Yours Sincerely,
Mark Firkin
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http://How come mssr: tanner and austin are not posting in this furom there thoughts or actions in this endouvour ? as active forum members it would be nice for you guys to weigh in on this discussion......
Dave and Mark are indeed working on this right at this moment. Not every detail of this proposal needs to pass your scrutiny Freaky.
NO your right there, but being informed might stop us getting in the way or cocking things up, even help us to help them in a more organised way rather than our usual half arsed approach :-X
PS. two thumbs up on your letter ! send them in fellas ;)
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Gents - only slightly off track (which is unusual for me) - what happens if I endevour to quieten my 73 Honda Cr as much as I can - travel all the way to Tassie for the Nationals and they decide it is too loud? Is it correct you get a warning first - bit difficult to get a bike checked as well I believe?
mmmmmmm!!!!
Rossco
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Rosco
thats what we are all about here - making sure that you don't get pinged at the start line in Tas after the big trip. Most bikes should be OK at 102db your not going to get to 96 easily. Once the message gets to MA then its hoped that there will be an exemption for the event and the commission can then move to fix the book for 2009.
DT
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Freaky and all,
We are working on resolving the 96db issue at the moment. Don't believe that nothing is happening lads.
This will affect the guys on the MA and state commissioners just as much as anyone else. On the MA commission I reckon we have about 50 old bikes between us, let alone all the states. We are plugging away...
Cheers,
Mark.
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This topic is slowing down on the site, and not many letters of objection have been received by MA.
Please lets keep the pressure on MA to revise this rule.
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They were doing sound testing at the Coff's Nationals.
Did any one take notice of what the readings were?
Did anything their actually make the 96 limit?
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The blokes doing the testing were sitting on the grass near track exit where bikes were idling back to scrutineering holding meter no where near bike exhaust, actually didnt see any testing as per gcrs but didnt really take a lot of notice either, dont know if anyone got pinged but from what I observed, very relaxed testing procedures
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Hi Guys,
I had my bike tested at Coffs as per the GCRs and it failed badly at 114db as I came off the track they called me a side and did the test.
I did a noise test day for modern bikes last weekend at a club practice day. I tested 37 bikes on the day 17 passed at 96 db 8 were between 97 and 99db and the others 12 were between 99 and 109db
The best bike was a 07 KTM at 87.4 db and the worst by far were 2 identical 07 KX 85 at 109db.The KXs had brand new procircut pipes and mufflers Costing $1000.00 each hence the owner has contacted the shop were they were bought and they told him that was impossible as factory testing of the pipe was at 103db. I think these company's should not be allowed to sell these things if they don't comply.
I am testing these two bikes again this weekend to make sure there was no mistake and then he is sending them back.
Cheers
Fatboy
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FBC,
just as a matter of intereset what was the 07 KTM that tested at 87.4?
250 2/4 stroke , 450 4 stroke ?
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I think the message is getting throuogh 102 is the go, dont think for one moment that we all wont try to be a low on the reading as possible, i will repack where i can but having a target threshold at 102db, can allow some movement in the range. If we get the nod 102 is ok, if we personally shoot for under it we would be doing all classic racing a favour ( so we dont standf out as loud ) and also we have room to move if for example you go all the way to tassie, if you left under 100db, but found your at 102db on the day no love lost, but if you left on 96 got there on 98db rightly youo could be told to pack up or be protested out, unlikely but possible.
I think you guys have it well under controll in the MA stakes, give us 102 and we will do our best to honour it in the spirit it was given back, be as quiet as we can and target to be under it as a volantary code of conduct.
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Question, how can you test your DB in your own backyard, any meters you could buy from Dick Smiths, and electronic gurus on the forum want to teach us how to make our own or any links on the web anybody knows of that will give this info, curiosity is now getting the better of me
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its not only the meter you need but morso the RPMs, you will need to either hook up a digital pulse tacho like a kart one or a vibration wheel so you can get to your CC's and configs RPM test block - say its 5-6,000RPM.
The meter is only half the challenge, you need to know your holding it in the right rev range for the readings to mean anything anyway. The sound pulse changes rapidly in the RPM range from loud to almost equal, if you can find your chambers "sweet spot" and if its in your tested RPM, you may be able to dial into that spot during your test and be at barely a puff.
I think any noise meter even the cheap ones would give you a fair idea, set up as per MOS book shows you everything there as far as angles.
Also where your bike holder stands can also change the Db by 1-2, note that one if you need to cut a DB at scruineering, there are tricks to play but at 102 we shouldnt have to resort to that sort of nonsense :P
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Has everybody sent their protest letter to MA regarding the draconian 96db sound levels yet? Without your lobbying nothing will change and we'll be stuck with 96db. It's no good whingeing afterwards so do it now. Send your protest emails to Ross Martin at [email protected] . For those who haven't worked it out yet, Ross is Rosmar off this forum.