OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: Ji Gantor on May 26, 2010, 02:28:46 pm
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Today I picked up a new filled Argon gas cylinder.
I paid for it last week and now I own it.
I do not have to rent another Argon gas bottle off BOC again.
Yahoooooo
Thanks go to oldskool another great Queensland member of the forum for picking it up in Newcastle for me.
Ji
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/Jigantor1963/Argon2a.jpg)
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This cylinder is a size or type E
This should keep me TIG welding for at least a year if not more.
What a day a Gold TIG filler wire for only $40.00 and my own Argon gas cylinder.
Ji
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/Jigantor1963/Argon2a.jpg)
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Good to see you so happy Ji :D
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Well VMX42 you made me so happy by offering that T shirt with a welding rod of my choose for only $40.00.
I have kept a copy of your offer just to keep things on the level when I pick up my solid Gold TIG filler rod.
Don't worry about the T shirt I just want the filler rod.
Ji
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This bottle with the gas weighs 38.6kilos
Ji
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…I have kept a copy of your offer just to keep things on the level when I pick up my solid Gold TIG filler rod. Ji
No problem Ji, your happiness is my primary concern. ;)
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Hi Walter,
i paid $409.00 for the bottle and the gas.
Ji
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It will cost $90.00 to have it filled by the company I purchased it off.
They are in Sydney.
Hard for me but it may be easier for you.
Ji
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Where is the heat tag ????
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How do you refill the bottle ? Thats the trick, I think .
This is the go for us, Particularly if you are higher consuming through mig application.
Keeping in mind we only do this with Inert bottle products, that are not capable of feeding a fire.
Get a few meters of hydraulic automobile malleable brake line pipe(it can cope with the pressure requirements). Then fit the ends with “bottle to bottle” bridging fittings
If you don’t have a friend who has a tax deductible bottle account, make one. Eg; panel beater.
I have two bottles, One working. The other filled or waiting to be filled.
When you have an empty bottle, It is time to touch base, with old mate. When his next full bottle arrives. Hook yours to his and steadily equalise transfer. Then slip old mate appropriate remuneration for halvies. Friends are a handy asset.
Although I have just set up an ABN, and will soon consider returning to a tax deductible filling account of my own.
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Do you mean this thing?
Is it required for argon?
Ji
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/Jigantor1963/Argon3a.jpg)
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What about Nitrogen etc ? Would be great to piss off BOC.
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That's the one, they have been out for a few years now different colours for each year ( blue being 2014 ) which might have something to do with retest date. Bar code should be on a tag also ( maybe black one )
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I think this is great. BOC have had a monop[oly on this for way too long. Do this mob do Oxy and Acetylene as well?
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So Oldfart Is it an Australian Standard that is required for use or just something BOC uses.
Ji
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Hi Mark,
I don't know but I will ask tomorrow for you.
Ji
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Googling tells me that the heat tag is required to tell the filler if the bottle has been near a furnace or in a fire.
I am not even sure I will be able to fill this bottle back in Sydney so I don't think this will effect me.
BOC and Liquard Air will not fill it up here in Bris.
Ji
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This bottle is taller than my BOC cylinder and has more gas.
Ji
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/Jigantor1963/Argon1a.jpg)
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Not too sure Ji ... I have a BOC account and they are on My - Argon 061 - oxy 020 bottles and nil on acety 040.
There is a New kid on the block in Beenliegh I must check out as I have been informed thier rentals & refills are much cheaper ( Supagas )
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Thanks Oldfart,
I too will keep checking tomorrow as this is important.
Work place health and safety wise not to mention insurance wise on my buildings.
Ji
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Here is a great spot to read about gas bottles here in Australia.
http://safety.chemistry.unimelb.edu.au/pdf/BOC_Guidelines_for_Gas_Cylinder_Safety.pdf
Ji
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These are the chaps selling them.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Welding-Welder-Argon-MIG-TIG-Gas-Cylinder-including-Gas-/140410078108?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_Welding&hash=item20b117c39c
Ji
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I too am pissed of with BOC, over charge for the rentals on there bottles, I have oxy, acetelene and argoshield, even the refill costs are a rip off!!
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Apparently they extract Argon straight out of the air.
The device sucks in some of our atmosphere and separates all the gases.
Ji
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Apparently they suck the oxygen out of the air to fill the bottles too
I don’t know about BOC having the monopoly, there has always been Air Liquide and Linde ever since my working days started.
Linde changed their name to something else a few years ago but I can’t think what it is at the moment.
Supagas is the new kid on the block for at least the last 5 years, maybe longer and now it seems we have Speedgas too.
From what I have seen though they must be in cahoots as their rental charges are all much the same.
Owning the bottles would certainly be a good saving. Air Liquide had a good deal many years ago if you paid 5 years rental up front it was way cheaper but they don’t do this anymore (or they keep it a secret).
I pissed off my acetylene a few years back and switched to LPG.
It feels the same for brazing, heating and cutting but not as good for welding, I only tried to weld with it once and couldn’t set a neutral flame so gave up.
The advantage of LPG is the gas is much cheaper and you can also save on rental as the fittings are the same as for you normal BBQ bottle.
You need different tips for LPG, possibly the torch too but I can’t see any difference in them.
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Hey Geoff,silly question. A few years back i had to get an exhaust and muffler apart (car)
I used my oxy/ac and as usual you run out of one of those,in my case oxygen.
I used my compressor to fill the oxy bottle with only compressor pressure and it got me out of trouble
The flame looked the same but the time to heat the pipe/join was way longer.
i'm wondering if its because of the actual compressor pressure instead of the very high bottled pressure.
I wonder if its the same when using LPG which a lot of tradies are using ie soft cock tight arse plumbers ;) that drive gaylux's and go fishing on the days that end with DAY (mainly a few of mates)
I also tried the same in desperation when i had one last weld to do with the TIG.
A one second trial convinced me it was no good for TIG welding.
That last 1 inch of weld on a fuel tank cost me a $120 bottle of argon...damn that hurts plus the rental for the next unused months.
I used BOC for a couple of years and gave them the flick and use Supagas...rental about the same but the refill is a few bucks cheaper.
The whole gas rental/pricing is a rip off in my view.
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The chances of running out of gas near the end of a job is directly proportional to the importance of the job being finished on time multiplied by the closing time and proximity of the gas suppliers.
It wasn’t the gas pressure that affected the flame but the purity of the gas.
Oxygen in a bottle is better for a flame than compressed air which contains a lot of impurities. Air is made up of many gases.
There’s another technical thread for someone, “What sort of air is air made from” :D
LPG is a softer flame but theirs something about setting the flame right to be able to weld with it. What ever it is I can’t be bothered.
I changed to LPG because I’m a soft cock tight arse Sheetie that would love to go riding on any day that ends in day
The idea of Argon around the weld is to keep the atmosphere away.
Inert gases are used for this, Helium also does the job.
TIG = Tungsten Inert Gas
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Lol...well said
I knew about the impurities and why argon and oxygen is used,maybe i was just trying to get out of being a tight arse soft cock motor mechanic.....but at least i turn up and fix the plumbers gaylux on time so he and his boyfriend can go fishing and rub oil on each other ;D
I'm fine with sheeties and real tradies that have to pay building leases and bills unlike plumbers and plasterers with 2 RDO's and stop work if they damage a finger nail crying about working out of a van or gaylux ;D ;D ;D
As you can tell most of my mates are in those trades.....lol
I'm with you on the riding days though.
Back to gases
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Last Time I rang BOC I said before they had a chance to answer ,I said Is this the bottle rental company. ;D
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Hey Geoff,silly question. A few years back i had to get an exhaust and muffler apart (car)
I used my oxy/ac and as usual you run out of one of those,in my case oxygen.
I used my compressor to fill the oxy bottle with only compressor pressure and it got me out of trouble
The flame looked the same but the time to heat the pipe/join was way longer.
i'm wondering if its because of the actual compressor pressure instead of the very high bottled pressure.
I use gas detectors at work and never seen the O2 content above 20.9% (Nitrogen is 78% of the air we breathe) so you only had 20% by volume of actual O2 in the bottle. Next would have been the water vapour from the compressor you put into the bottle.Nothing to do with the pressure as that is regulated anyway.
There’s another technical thread for someone, “What sort of air is air made from” :D
A better one would be "What sort of air changes the tune of your engine" ;D
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Thanks Lozza i figured that out later but it seemed that the pressure from the compressor at max reg was so weak.
I have one of those old dial up incremmented pressure regs so i couldn't see the actual pressure in the tank but it got the job done...very slowly.
But yeah regulated is regulated.....just not enough pressure to regulate in my case.
It was a case of fill the bottle,disconnect,reconnect reg,not a continuous compressor fill.
The moisture would have been the reason you said.
cheers...always good to know.
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Yesterday we got another price increase from Air Liquide, it goes up every month or two and they send another list. But the rental really hurts, just a few dollars every month, month in month out, for every bottle. We swap the bottles every time rather than hold them over but we need to be on the ball so as to not run out during a job though they are only five minutes down the road. Only once did we hold a bottle over and they slugged us twice and then tried it on every month thereafter until we threatened to burn them down!!
We've found that if they are cheaper on one type of gas they will be much dearer on another as if they only make one type and BOC makes the other and they have to buy it from them.
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Does anyone know if you can still buy these bottles of argon? I can't seem to find out anything about them. The ebay link doesn't work but maybe it's just timed out.
Thanks,
Pete.
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Does anyone know if you can still buy these bottles of argon? I can't seem to find out anything about them. The ebay link doesn't work but maybe it's just timed out.
Thanks,
Pete.
Hi Pete, heres the active link.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/D-Welding-Welder-Argon-MIG-TIG-Cylinder-including-Gas-/140452934154?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item20b3a5b20a (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/D-Welding-Welder-Argon-MIG-TIG-Cylinder-including-Gas-/140452934154?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item20b3a5b20a)
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Thanks very much for that Mick, much appreciated.
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in the same vein, is it possible to get oxy or acetylene rather than be taxed by BOC forever?
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Bought a bottle off LINDI if I recall correctly.
$350 and never pay rent again they said.
4 years later AIR LIQUIDE bought them out.
Quess what.
Am now back at BOC. :)
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I rent Air Liquide cylinders because the local BOC shop doesn't open on Saturdays while the AL agent does.
I worked for BOC for 10 years and loved it but theres no sense being stuck without gas on the weekend
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I have used FOOD GRADE Co2 in my MIG on mild steel.
Ran out at St George and only place open was the Soft Drink factory.
Had to play with the fittings a bit. :)
Works OK , bit harsh, bit of undercutting, very cheep tho :)
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I've just read this thread from the start and no-one has said anything about the cost for Ji when the cylinder is due for testing (10 years from the last test date in the case of Argon). When I worked at BOC (and ran the cylinder test shop at Rocklea, Brisbane) we used to do testing of privately owned cylinders (RAAF, army, Telstra etc) and it was about one hundred dollars per cylinder (in the 1980s). God knows how much it would be nowadays, and no gas company would fill Ji's Argon cylinder if it was overdue for test.
About the heat indicator tags, they were developed by BOC during my time there and it was because there was no way to tell if an aluminium cylinder had been heated slightly above the temperature that causes softening of the metal over a long time scale, and some aluminium cylinders failed during filling due to being exposed to temperatures of about 120 degrees for a long time (the heating was while they were with customers). The previously used heat indicators (test date ring, stickers, valve handwheel and paint) were not affected until the cylinder is heated above the point of softening so we developed those saggy tags that droop if the temperature goes over about 100 degrees C.
It wasn't a legal requirement when I was there but may have been added the Australian Standards since then. We mainly wanted to protect our cylinder fillers from exploding cylinders.
Aluminium gas cylinders are very carefully age-hardened in a salt bath when new and can be just as easily age-softened by customers.
Ji's argon cylinder is not BOC and not aluminium so does not have or need a droopy heat indicator tag.
As far as welding steel with oxy-LPG goes, even with the right tips, it is very hard to control the weld because the temperature throughout the length of the flame is almost constant. Oxy acetylene is so good because the steep temperature gradient moving away from the tip of the bright inner flame makes it easy to control the temperature of the weld pool.
For flame cutting, oxy-LPG is easily the most economical combination and works great.
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nobody would be even raising this except for the crazy rental fees...
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How does a cylinder get heated anyway? I would not be putting a flame anywhere near it. Even in the hottest tin sheds in the middle of a heat wave with no air con, its only going to get to 50 or 60 deg C at most i reckon.
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There add says that cylinders DO NOT require a test for 10 years .... by then they should have an agency in QLD ;) If my sums are correct he is still way in front by purchasing rather than renting.
It's the rental factor that's killing me, every firkin month there is an increase how the hell do they justify it.
I've been down the LPG - oxy senario .... It's like pissin in the ocean to turn it salty.
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Ive allways said BOC are not in the gas buiness there in the bottle rental buisness