OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: YSS on August 01, 2007, 09:16:24 am
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Dear Members , in order to stay on track with your suspension needs and requirements , we are interested to know where VMX is heading.
A)is there a need to duplicate the OEM look ?
B)is adjustability a plus ?
C)is price an issue?
D) should the settings be more adapted for modern tracks?
E) should the shocks have a classic look , or do people prefere wild anodized colours to stand out?
Please have your say
Regards Walter YSS R+D
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A) No, but sometimes it would be a bonus.
B) Not to me (assuming they're set up right in the first place, of course).
C) Yes.
D) Don't know.
E) Generally I'd prefer the classic look, but I'd imagine that there'd be a segment of the market that would go for the flashy look.
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Hey Walter,
A) To 'restorers' this might be important, but to 'racers' probably not.No use in having a trick bit if nobody knows.
B) YES YES YES
C) ALWAYS
D) With adjustabilty this problem is overcome somewhat
E) Nice for a 'Gold' option on spring seats and aluminium clear bodies.
Linear rate springs please ;D
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rule number 1 - fully rebuildable
rule number 2 - realistically priced ( i still cant fathom the price differance between car and bike0 you guys must be having a lend of us oil filled shocks are nearly the same as they have always been so cost of production tooling and R and D has been well and trully paid out. Fix the price at $150 for a decent adjustable 13 incher and youll double you market placement over night.
Colour and style not important make the bodies black and people can paint the springs if they feel the need for sexy.
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Well freakshow , you can have 150 Dollar OEM shocks , in any colour , springrate ,lenght you like , but we need a big order. Making 1 pair or making or making 1000 per order is a big cost difference .
( there is no packaging , no spanners , no instruction manual , no warranty registration, no set up time , no hard anodizing, no chrom silicon springs, only freight and invoicing by pallet)
I hope that explains the cost difference. regards Walter
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Hey Walter,
A) To 'restorers' this might be important, but to 'racers' probably not.No use in having a trick bit if nobody knows.
B) YES YES YES
C) ALWAYS
D) With adjustabilty this problem is overcome somewhat
E) Nice for a 'Gold' option on spring seats and aluminium clear bodies.
Linear rate springs please ;D
Re D , with 100mm stroke it is not easy to cater for grasstrack and SX use, thats why I am asking where VMX is heading , because when we have to cater for a fully rutted out track by moderns a nice spring and damping setup is not adequate and the shocks would get hammered to pieces.
E, Gold option we already use for the asian and scooter market , but I do not recommend it because the gold colouring is not as hard as natural hard anodizing.
The other problem then would be stock , one bloke wants black , another green and so on.
Thank you for your input
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A. Not really OEM copies but a classic look.
B. Yes.
C. Can be.
D. yes.
E. Classic look.
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Well freakshow , you can have 150 Dollar OEM shocks , in any colour , springrate ,lenght you like , but we need a big order. Making 1 pair or making or making 1000 per order is a big cost difference .
( there is no packaging , no spanners , no instruction manual , no warranty registration, no set up time , no hard anodizing, no chrom silicon springs, only freight and invoicing by pallet)
I hope that explains the cost difference. regards Walter
HEy you wanted feedback , so i gave it.
until you can hit that magic number like the rest of the guys i know ill continue to rebuilt old shocks and buy ex demo units out the states. Oil Shockers are shockers down this end of the market, unless your racing for sheep stations and you and i know the mark up the industry puts on your shocks, its up to you to figure out if you want volume or profit.
Dont shoot the messenger, IF you dont like opinions dont ask for marketing help. if i wanted name brand nike runners i would pay the extra, reality is on the inside there essentially all the same whether they come from the states, china or thailand, price should still be under $150 a pair anything else is Profittering IMHO
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Sorry Freaky , it was not meant like that . I only tried to explain why car or any OEM shock is cheaper than something model specifc . Thank you for your help anyway :-[ regards Walter
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no offence taken its a forum, everyone here agrees to disagree just ask nathan. Beside the best ideas and markets are created from all the differant angles
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A-no
B-yes
C-yes
D-pre 78 grasstrack tuned, post78 more tuned for modern tracks (my ideal setup )
E-probably a classic look.
I checked out Walters shockie session at Classic Dirt 4 and it was good to find out just how the shocks were made and how the various components were selected and used to produce a top quality product
for a reasonable price.
It must be put into perspective,the relatively small numbers of VMX shocks versus the huge numbers of
other types.
we should be thankful that someone with an interest in VMX is producing something we need.
It is quite often easier to put the effort into a more cost effective product.
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Thanks everyone so far . But why do only novices give feed back ? Are there no pros out there in VMX ?
:-\. Just joking .regards Walter
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Were all novices with the new forum,untill I get to 'self appointed legend' status
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Walter give a pair of shocks to Graeme VMXMAN he runs this wonderful site he can run them on his project SUZUKI TM125 then he will tell everyone how good they are. Then you will sell more and the Legend of the YSS shocks will be born.I think you have a good product I saw them at CD4 I will be buying a pair when the wife stops checking the bank account.
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KB the Koni adjustment is shit.I've seen inside Koni's and YSS and is like comparing a 07 commodore to and HQ kingswood.They both will cart you down the shops and back but there is a world of difference.Don't even think twice jimson, best money you will ever spend.
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A, Near enough is good enough
B, Yes
C, YES! poor bastards like to race too (I don't want my shocks to be more $$$ than my bike)
D, No, if I wanted to ride a modern track I would buy a modern bike
E, I'm kinda fond of these ones below...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Walter give a pair of shocks to Graeme VMXMAN he runs this wonderful site he can run them on his project SUZUKI TM125 then he will tell everyone how good they are. Then you will sell more and the Legend of the YSS shocks will be born.I think you have a good product I saw them at CD4 I will be buying a pair when the wife stops checking the bank account.
Yes , good Idea , He does so much for this sport. We could make a complet package together with the new PD Fork valves. We actually have uploaded this product now for everyone to have a peak. www.yss-suspension.com .
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G'day Walter i am doing some market research of my own and i want to upgrade my suspension on my YZ400E. I need new fork springs and would like to upgrade the valves, my forks are in reasonable condition and have been resealed and the rear is too soft also, I would like to O/haul and maybe replace the spring. How Long,How Much and do you have a transport / Courier service that i could trust with these items ? I am located in Melbourne thanks
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Sent you PM regards Walter
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A: No unless you can duplicate them to every last bit for the restorers. Otherwise not important.
B: Adjustability is the most important item on a race shock.
C: To most racers it's an issue. Keep them under $500 and you are in the park.
D:Not sure what you mean by that question Walter.
E: I like the look of the shocks as they are now. I've got them on my bikes and thet look the part. I hate those blue spring Works shocks. They ruin the look on any bike.
Freakshow is way out of it with his assumption that shocks should cost $150. Big companies like Boge,Koni and the like make their car shocks by the millions in third world countries like Mexico and China where the workers get very low wages. For a limited market like vintage motocross you don't have sales generation that lowers the manufacturing overheads. I'm a small manufacturer myself and I can't compete with the big guys so I offer my (non motorcycling) products to a more specific, specialised market for a higher price, but with the same profit margin as the big guys who manufacture in China or India. Walter is in the same boat I'd imagine even though he manufactures in Thailand. I have YSS shocks and can confirm that they are quality items and are superb in their quality of manufacture and to compare them with mass produced cars shocks is ludicrous.
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Walter in the latest VMX mag on page 70 under "Parts & Products" there are a set of your latest and greatest offering in shocks. Shock being the key word aspecially when I seen the cost. Don't get me wrong I'm sure there excellent shocks with all the latest bells and whistles. But fair dinkum mate, a set of shocks costing approximately a third of the totally restoration cost of an average VMX bike to showroom floor condition, and I'm speaking from recent experience. I have to go with Freakshow on this one, you guys need to get this into perspective. As for the other factors you are asking about, go with the comments left by these guys, after all there grass roots level and thats where your best R&D comes from, thanks.
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I think those shocks are never aimed at anyone restoring a vmx bike.They are race shocks to go on race bikes for blokes that want to win national championships.To do that you'll need a set of decent shocks not $150 crappers.
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A. No
B. Adjustment means everything
C. Up to $500 seems OK for decent shock
D. Yeah, why not,
E. Polished finish is great, spring color option would be nice
Gotta say that i bought a set of earlier YSS shocks and got spring ratings all wrong from the charts initially for the AW400 Maico as the 76 model sits more vertical compared to 77 more leaned forward. Hence the springs were not right for my slim 95kgs and on third ride out and three months after purchase, I blew seals out of the body, collapsing bushes and pretty much trashing a $800 set of shocks, needless to say i was pretty peeved off about YSS shocks and felt like they were crap and took them back to my supplier just thinking ive done my cash. Now heres the good bit, Walter and my supplier who i ordered my shocks from got on the phone, realised wrong spring rating for lean forward shocks, we sent the shocks back to Walter who fully rebuilt the shocks, replaced all the bushings with the Maico offsets to help avoid chain rub and replaced Springs with correct rated ones. No fuss from Walter and his crew in setting this matter right and Ive gotta say these shocks have gotta be the best investment Ive made to date for the Maico. YSS seems to take an interest in our sport although it is only a very small part of the market for YSS, they are actively present in our forum and now anyone who asks me about YSS (which i should add also look pretty schmuck on the Maico with there nice red springs) to do themselves a favor and invest in a set because i now believe they are very good value for money, we got to sort it out directly with the boss and they got it right at no cost to me which i didnt think was possible nowadays. Wonder if the any one of the other Shock manufacturers would have taken this interest in one middle aged vmx hack, i highly doubt it ::).
Oh yeah Walter, thanks for supplying us a product which allows our input. :)
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i to would like to thank walter for his help i bought a set of yss shocks from him and he was very helpfull and they look pretty cool to
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g120/ibop/IMGP1153.jpg)
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Now if us YZ riders can just have a monoshock that would be cool and since it just the 1 old shock would it be half the price? ;D
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Thanks again everyone , just trying to answer a few questons collectively.
Number one priority , if there is a problem , let us know first and we will fix it for you and also set proceedings for changes in place. If you are happy tell others.If we dont know , how can we improve things?
Its not always easy to create the optimal shock out of the box for bikes of this age , different weights, modiefied frames and swingarms ,different applications (grastracks , modern MX tracks , short circuit).
But as we go on we will master this and get better and better. ( it took other companies years to get as far as we have in only 4 years.) Les Richters from Mainly Maico ,Alan Prince from Link and Greg Fairthorne from ASR Suspension will be doing a suspension school run by me in our factory in Bangkok shortly . That will help them also to identyfie orders better and lay hands on , if need to be.
Regarding the $150.00 shocks , yes , yes we have them . We make them for OEM Honda , Tiger , Triumph
and a few small manufacturers. But I dont think that is going in the right direction . You get what you pay for. If you are genuinly hard up or have a good promo story we always have some demo shocks or a special to help out.
Regarding the Mono shocks , yes we do make them too . But that is not so easy as the twins.
If we already produce the shock its OK , but if I have to make a one of , the cost can be as high as $1700.00 for a super modern high-low speed shock.(it cost the same to build a shock for a R1 Race bike as for a old YZ ).But we can do it.If we make ,lets say 10 of the same unit , the cost drops straightaway.
The other option is , we reuse what you have ( spring , shockbody , reservoir etc) then the cost is only a fraction.Thats something we can only do in Adelaide when time permits. After all the running of R+D and distribution of new products has priority.
Again thanks everyone for your help. Its just great that so many VMX ers help to shape our(and your ) product.
Regards YSS R+D
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Walter,
Have you ever considered running suspension schools or seminars?
I for one would be happy to fly down to attend something like this.
Cheers
Brent
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they had shocker school at cd4
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they had shocker school at cd4
Oh I didn't think it was that bad. :) :)
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Unfortunaltely I missed CD4, I was looking forward to the shock school amoung other things.
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Gents - some of the comments above are excellent - firstly most of us fall into a novice category (unless I am wrong and I am talking about riding skill here) - do we need shocks with 250 different adjustment points - I had mine set up from the shop and the improvement over what I had was awesome??? Secondly look is not so critical - thirdly I want the best I can get for my money that suit me as a rider - yep would of loved a set of Ohlins but at $1500 as opposed to a set of rebuildable Falcons at $550 then money became the decider.
Real hard question to ask Walter as always it would be horses for courses. But as is obvious pleanty of feedback so well worth the effort.
cheers
Rossco
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Bring your money with you, bye now.