OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => VMX Sidecars => Topic started by: odd1 on October 18, 2009, 08:40:54 am
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Does anybody have any dimensioned drawings for a pre85 sidecar?
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Thankyou Wasp
Can the solo bike frame be altered in any way
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cant you have monshocks if you build a sidecar on to a pre 85 solo bike eg any single shock solo up to 84. Whats the go with that RM500 then? that is single shock and did it race at the nationals in pre 85?
Do you just mean no factory frame monoshocks in pre 85 but home built outfits on pre 85 solo bikes are ok? If thats not the case then thats another one of those classes/rules that dont reflect/represent the period acurately because pre 85 monoshock solos existed back then and people could have built sidecars on them back then. Lets hope thats not the case and sidecars on pre 85 solo monoshock bikes are allowed in pre 85 sidecar MX.
odd1, you can put a leading link on it but make sure you build it specifically to suit the bikes geometry. I see many outfits where guys think a leading link is a leading link at fit one off another bike or off a factory frame and the geometry is all wrong. You know its set up pretty good if you can take your hands off the bars but it keeps going in a stright line 8). If your considering fitting one to a solo, consider strenthening the front down tube and main back tube under the tank. and areas around the shock mounts. Seen a few break and spring open and have their motors almost drop to the ground before. if your not a welder yourself, make sure you get somone who knows where the stress points are and attaches mounts in correct areas etc. Good luck.
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Thankyou Wasp
Can the solo bike frame be altered in any way
Yes they can ,but have to be the right specifications,,,
You could get hold of a Motorcycling Manual to get some more info needed..
http://www.ma.org.au/Content/MA/FormsRules/Generalcompetitionrules/Manual_of_motorcycl.htm
They have a state controlling body in each Aussie State and then your club is next in line to help you out with rules etc or to get you a copy of the MC Manual
Great to see you on board ;D
Where are you by the way ??
cheers
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Thats fine there was no monshock factory sidecar frames. What i was referring to was sidecars on monoshock pre 85 solo bikes. Is there a blanket rule that says no monoshocks on any pre 85 sidecars either home buit or factory built?
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Our opinions,judgments and past history are not that important at this stage.
It is what is written in the book for those new to the sport and needing a hand to get started.
So when they rock up to an event,they don't look like a goose. :o
I believe if you start with the book you are on the right foot to begin. 8)
cheer Alison
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but the book says the bike it must made pre 85 or an ecact replica there of
Ok the way i understand that means, if you built a sidecar lets just say onto a monoshock 1983 CR480, lowering it adding a leading link etc during the 83 or 84 season and you have had it parked in the shed for many years and now decide you want to drag it out and race it at the 2010 nationals for example, then that is ok but you can not pick up a second had 83 CR480 tomorrow and start to build a sidecar on it ready for the 2010 nationals unless you have one that someone built back in 83/84 side by side and can copy every detail? Right? If thats so im not real keen on it as its a deterrant for new people entering the sport and forces them to spend big $ on a factory built wasp/EML etc and kills off the creativity to build your own.
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Ok that pretty much kills my idea then. Its kinda pedanic that you could go and build one tomorrow with the best intentions to have it meet wheelbase and length dimensions, look the right period with right brakes, suspension etc but ultimately be not allowed because you have used steel and welding filler rods from 2009. How would they be able to proove you built it last week and its not one you had in your shed since 83 and did a restoration on it especially since no 2 home built outfits are the same? So does this same thing to apply pre 85 twinshocks aswell? eg you cant go and build a home made sidecar onto a 81 TT500 for pre 85 unless you are copying a home built one made back then? Im not looking to argue, just looking for answers/reasons.
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Steven & I had a quick look through the BOOK and there really isn't much in there at all about pre85 sidecars,even Evo.. :-\
The whole thing needs a big revamp and updating..
Which has been discussed at lengths on other threads.
cheers
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Welcome to our nightmare!!. As I've said, there is a similar thread on the UK Twinshock forum.
Here in Qld we have had 500cc singles running for many years as that was a good cheap way of starting in the sport. All of them were home built so there must be precidence there.
I can also remember racing against Murray Williams on a CR480 at ACUSA park in what must have been 1983 at the Nationals. I remember it well as Murray ran with telos on the front and though it was quick, it was all over the place, and also it was the year we pulled the front end off the DR500 we raced-and that proves the point about strengthening the frames at the head stem.
These outfits-500 4stroke singles- are a top way of joining sidecars, they are easy to build, fun to race and cheap to maintain. They can be era correct if you pick the right motor, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki all made one as well as Husky and maybe even the LC4 can fit in. Rotax also had one but I don't think they ever had one here. For that real retro look you could even try something from the speedway/dirt track side like an Eso or Jawa and bolt it to an AMC box.
I can't see why they wouldn't let you race and if we got enough 500s we could race two classes again.
A good 500 4 stroke can make 50hp and is light enough to win on when ridden well. They make for great racing, which we need and can be used to train more combatants, which we need and it's cheap, which is good, and they raced in the day which is great.
Also the 500 Yamaha we have up here is a copy of an early Wasp that Alan Hill imported in the early 70's .....they made 4 or 5 copies of which this is the last known surviver and we had to rebuild the chair as it had almost rusted off. I can't see why it's not a pre 75. The only problem is the sidecar guard which is later model as that's all they had to copy.
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To keep the outfits era specific perhaps we need to stick to the twin shock method as aren't any single shock solos that fit the criteria-that I can think of. The 500 4 strokes were always twin shockers.
However- to build the sport back up we need numbers-bums on seats and perhaps we need to think of a feeder class-which to my mind is the 500 4stroke. Ban the two smokers and build the sport. It also has a lot to do with what people like to watch and Wally will agree that by 1987, with the advent of the lite weight two stroke outfits, crowds in Europe had dropped right off. It wasn't until the nineties that they got going again when some teams started going really quickly and making some spectacular jumps. the crowds there are back up to the 50+k.
We also have to remember that there are no sheepstations up for grabs here. It's just some old dudes having some fun that no-one comes to watch anyway!!
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Odd 1 , LCW , EML VMX 247 , I have now conceded to the fact, that we are now in 2009, and not in 1984. I have now withdrawn my previous posts. I shall now make room for the new VMX sidecars and will not bother you anymore with my dribble about saving the era of GRMs , Hedlunds , Weslakes, Nortons ,Folans or Jumbos.
Its time to move on. Sorry for bothering you .I just realised I spent 150 hours on this forum trying to save something that has meant so much to me, where as I could have spent my time on much more needed issues.
Wasp get back on here and toughen the f... up.
Ya cant just throw a random remark like that...Its in ya blood,so what if ya spent 150 hours at it.. Who cares if its 1 minute or 1000 hours.
More input the better. :)
MA needs to sort the GCRs out, simple as that. :o
Everyone's input is valid.
Save the era for sh..t sake. 8)
cheers Alison
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It's just some old dudes having some fun that no-one comes to watch anyway!!
And I thought people loved em at the Nationals...drew the crowd in. 8)
cheers
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And I'm not apologizing for my bad language..so don't send me any insulting PM's. 8)
cheers
Alison
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Correction ...... 7 days =168 hours plus 24 minutes ;)
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Well what about if the sidecar you turned up in was'nt period correct it was done on a points basis for instance points deducted for each item that was wrong frame/year 100points 2stroke 90points For each inch above what was correct for that period 50points because lets face it there is not that many pre74 and pre 85s out there that are changing hands The 4strokes are fantastic and you will never beat the sound of 4stroke sidecars off the line. I think for the national titles the bikes have to be period correct however for other races I cant see why the moderns cant race the oldies on a handicap system because there would be alot moderns that would struggle to pass Walters wasp or Popeye and Vaughn on full song. Lets face it, too the general public most of them would'nt be able too tell the difference between an oldee and a modern. But I think they would like to see 20 sidecars racing for the first corner.The tracks would have to be set out for the bikes with the least amount of suspension.
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Well what about if the sidecar you turned up in was'nt period correct it was done on a points basis for instance points deducted for each item that was wrong frame/year 100points 2stroke 90points For each inch above what was correct for that period 50points because lets face it there is not that many pre74 and pre 85s out there that are changing hands The 4strokes are fantastic and you will never beat the sound of 4stroke sidecars off the line. I think for the national titles the bikes have to be period correct however for other races I cant see why the moderns cant race the oldies on a handicap system because there would be alot moderns that would struggle to pass Walters wasp or Popeye and Vaughn on full song. Lets face it, too the general public most of them would'nt be able too tell the difference between an oldee and a modern. But I think they would like to see 20 sidecars racing for the first corner.The tracks would have to be set out for the bikes with the least amount of suspension.
Odd1.
I understand what you are trying to say..Quote me if I'm wrong. :o
At a National event the sidecars and solos have to go through scrutineering for era eligibility (usually knowledgeable officials, well one hopes so ;D ).
At a club level you could possibly run modern and vintage together on the same track (as some clubs do in Oz) in whatever frame you wish,As the Club may well be made up of MA Officials and the whole community of safety,knowledge and MX/VMX spies, I think you maybe questioned on the standard of your sidecar/solo. :P
It wouldn't make for a pretty picture if you busted your ass on travel,time and money to go to the event and get told in uncertain terms to pee off..after all there has to be some kind of order..Sometimes we just have to be sheep and follow the leader. 8)
Rock up to an event and get involved or have a yarn to other sidecar enthusiasts and see how you go.
Where are you in Australia. ??
cheers
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Sydney NSW
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Two trains of thought here- as I have said we need more sidecars-there aren't that many about (except in Wallys cellar) so let's race what we can-up to a point. That point is what we could or would call a 'lite weight' i.e. Two stroke 500+/- with single shock.
If we stick to the 500 4 stroke twin shock model we will be safe. We will have more outfits and people will be able to handle them. A copy of a Wasp or VMC chair and forks will do the job-it's cheap and fun-WHAT MORE DO WE NEED!!
There is no better sight or sound than 30 chairs heading up into the first corner and it's not that fast so no-one should get hurt.
I also said that these 500 4 strokes were around in the day- I know because we raced one against others up here. You could even get one into pre75 as Bretts is and Rocky has a BSA in pre68 so all bases are covered.
That's what we will be racing in Qld so get off your arses and build one. Or put one in an older frame and that will protect it from major damage by a big motor. We will still race our big bikes because that's what we have.
The only other alturnative is to run the 100yr rule as one club in England does-driver & passenger & sidecar age must total 100yrs, so young team on old chair verses old team on young chair or a mix of the above.
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I like the 100 year rule
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I know for a fact that sidecars were put on pre 85 single shock XT550, XL/XR500, XL 600, TT600, IT400/490 etc back then, perhaps not many were out doing the competitve MX circuit as the big wasp/EML multis were still popular and powerful, but they were competing in club events and Enduros/reliability trials. If the rules are up for discussion and changing my only request would be that a pre 85 sidecar can be put onto any solo bike up to 1984 models and doesnt matter if its twin shock or single shock as long as its a model that was available pre 85. Swing arm lengthening/custom swingarms allowed. Custom built leading links allowed but to look period correct as much as possible. Custom built specials should try to look the right period as much as possible so no copying a 2009 BSU frame and bolting a XS650 or RM500 engine in it if you know what i mean ;), but with open slather on shocks and other items like bars, rims etc just like in the solo classes, we can never 100% represent a period correclty, There will always be some new parts or cosmetics that were not used back n the day, but generally these have now been accepted in most classes. Another point is that a lot of the old factory frames out there have now had very a very hard life and the frames not like they used to be with many cracks and repairs, so the time will come when we see more home built specials or copies of factory frames. 4 or 5 years ago i saw the first 85 CR500 VMC frame brought to Australia and it had so many welds and repairs i couldnt believe it. Its had a hard life. I havent seen it out competing for some time now though.
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I think LWC is heading the correct way, however we must watch out for the very light and fast two smokers. Perhaps staying with twin shockers would be ok like TS400 or something like that. Any single shock stuff needs to go into Evo class-the solo boys are already up in arms about sidecars digging up the tracks and from Conondale VMX nats anyone can vouch that single shock solos can make life hard for us all.
You have to remember that the frame makers in Europe usually banked on getting 1/2 a GP season out of a frame and that's without any major mishaps/crashes. The GP bikes were then sold on to National riders and a complete new frame/wheels/shocks etc... was supplied to the works team.
That is why there are often more sidecars from a particular driver than years.
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Very good points. ;D.....
now it needs to go in point form and sent to your club.....
then State Controlling body and then the big Motorcycling Australia for the rule book.
Submit Submit 8)
Go for it.. :o .make it happen :P
cheers
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The thing is . it's not a problem here in Qld. But if you think it would help the other states I can do that for you.
Interesting that the last enquires about sidecars have come from NSW- and I'm not sure if they are able to compete there unless the track is fully fenced or some such shit-can anyone enlighten me on that as I can remember racing at Raymond tce in 1986 with John Robinson and then at Woolongong in 1988 I helped the Standage bros. out at a state title meet.