Author Topic: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70  (Read 13228 times)

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Offline jimson

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2008, 09:33:21 AM »
I don't know but I hope they leave it like it is who ever buys it if I had money it would be in my shed  8) jimson
Just a balless freak having a go

firko

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2008, 09:46:23 AM »
The bike obviously fits into pre 70 or perhaps pre 68. Those Hagon grass track style frames were'nt around prior to 1965, if they had been the bike would have made it into pre 65. There is no pre 60 class in dirt track and never has been.
I agree with Jimson. This bike should'nt be restored. It should remain as it is showing all of the patina of it's well used life. If it was restored much of its character would disappear for ever. You can't restore soul.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 09:48:01 AM by firko »

Offline jimg1au

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 10:00:04 AM »
hagons were in england before 1965.pre 1960 speedway bikes were raced in grasstrack in the UK thats when the Rh corners were put in to stop speedway bikes winning everything.thus swinging right hand side foot peg was invented.

firko

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2008, 10:13:07 AM »
I agree that sliders were around in the early '60s Jim but I'm referring to that particular Hagon frame design. I personally think the bike should be allowed in pre 65 but if someone wanted to protest it because of its frame the owner would have an argument on his hands. Jonsey, the expert on these things is away this weekend otherwise I'd draw him into the discussion. He has one of these Hagon frames and I'm certain he told me they came out around '68 (he's bidding on this one as well). If that's the case, the Arthur King replica would have to be made after that, therefore, pre 70.

I know it's piddling details but when pedantic protesters like a certain West Aussie or this forums 'Jikov' are there with their measuring tapes and note pads you'd better be sure you are right or they'll sure as shit protest you. Crazy eh?

Personally, I think this bike is better suited for a lazy Classic Dirt style show and fun ride retirement. It wouldn't be all that competitive against the 2 valve Jawas and Japs so why stress the old gem?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 10:16:25 AM by firko »

Offline jimg1au

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2008, 11:06:59 AM »
In 1958 Alf began his own business in his Mothers 6'x10' garden shed building speedway and grasstrack frames. He was selected to tour Australia with the English speedway team in the same year and, on return to the UK, married his fiancee Jean and in 1960 set up Hagon Products at 350-352 High Road in Leyton East London, living above the shop. His frames won many world championships. His products have been exported to more than twenty nations, and German ace Egon Muller held the 1000 metre sand track speed record at one time, established on a Hagon machine.

http://www.trakbytes.co.uk/hofaha.html

this clear shows hagon powered bikes were around pre60 so in the replica part of the gcrs hagons should be allowed in pre65 at least

Offline jimg1au

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2008, 11:12:39 AM »
there you bring up an other bugbare of mine. pre 1975 2v only what about aussie neil street also 4v weslake ran in a speedway race 1974
from don godden web page
http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/archives/speedwaybikes/godden.htm


Neil Street had built almost single-handed a four valve engine in the early seventies which had frightened a lot of big reputations. Out of this, and particularly the enthusiasm of Weslake's Ron Valentine, came the Weslake four-valve speedway engine. The prototype debuted at Lydden in September '74. It didn't win (it was sidelined by an electrical fault) but showed tremendous power and much impressed the likes of Peter Collins and Ivan Mauger. For once the press raved positively, which more than anything else gave


Offline Tim754

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2008, 01:45:22 PM »
Just get it back on track someone , How magnificent a piece of racing history !!!!
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
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firko

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2008, 01:47:55 PM »
Jim, I'll bow to your knowledge of Hagons and wait until my brains trust on such matters returns from his trip. Like I said, I don't really give a toss and suspect that it would pass scrutiny for pre 65 anyway. I'm just playing the devils advocate and presenting a hypothetical scrutineering situation.

In the 20 years I've been involved in this sport I've seen a couple of terrible scrutineering injustices, one of which is the case of Frank Veradis home built BSA B44 scrambler in WA. Frank has photographic proof that he was racing the bike in 1964 BUT every time he tries to enter the bike in pre 65 (it happened again at last years Coffs Nats)it is protested by a certain Western Australian serial pest who maintains that the bike has been in a continual state of modification over its life so therefore it's now a different bike to what was being raced in '64. I won't go into the pros and cons of that particular case here as I forget some of the details so I don't want to misrepresent either case. My point is that you'd have to have photographic proof that Arthur King did indeed have that frame on the track in 1964. Like I wrote earlier, that situation may never arise but if it did, you'd need that documentation. Silly? Sure, but you have to see these pedants in action to appreciate their audacity.

In the situation you have bought up regarding the eligibility of 4 valve conversions in the pre 75 2 valve slider class, their omission can be easily explained. The 2 valve class is exactly that, a class exclusively for upright 2 valve sliders. It is not a pre '75 class . The class was developed purely to create a theoretical level playing field class, thereby producing close and exciting racing. It is not and was never intended to be a vintage class in the true sense of the word. 4 valve engines are covered by the newly developed Evo class which allows for any upright 4 valve engine. Not everybody agrees with the 2 valve concept but at it's peak the racing was electric and many old champions like Kevin Fraser, John Langfield, Mick Cady, Gary O'Brien, Lenny Norris, Glenn McDonald, Phil Herne, Geoff Grabham and many more fought some amazing tussles. The 2 valve class was one of the more successful classes in classic racing. In recent years many of the old riders have again retired and a newer generation of 4v racers are coming onto the scene. The 2 valve class is still strong however with my old mate Alan Jones being the current champ. Alan has probably one of the best collections of 4v conversions and rare speedway engines in the world but still prefers to race 2 valves. He has said many times that if the 4 v engines would have been allowed back in the formative years the class wouldn't have become as strong and competitive as it did. A culture of the "rich guys" who could afford a Street or Rickardson conversion would have overpowered the "poor guys" who couldn't find or afford such technology. The "level playing field" wouldn't have existed. Thankfully those engines are now catered for in the Evo class.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 02:29:02 PM by firko »

Offline Tim754

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2008, 02:08:23 PM »
The only time someone protested my 754 their reasons were "it is home built so you change it all the time so it cannot be as 1973/74 !!!!"  ??? ??? ??? Protest was dismissed in minutes but did not stop the "person Hmm" calling me a cheat!!!............ In case anyone cares every part except the rear tyre , hand grips, spark plugs and some spots of weld, black tape, cable ties, screws, nuts, bolts ,oil and fuel is NOS or used items made before 1975. ;)
Somebody donate me that slider ;D please....  Cheers Tim
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
                                                   Voltaire.

Offline jimg1au

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2008, 04:20:18 PM »
mark
i used to race a hagon jap in 1973 and it was second hand then.i know they were pre70 as mine was and ther were heaps off home made bsa, areil(i have one it was made pre68 by my brother).es2 nortons and velos,i used to like the 500cc goldstar hagon copies they were picture to see and hear.you are right they are no match for japs and jawas.but then we had a 350cc class as well.i just think if there were around and raced world wide in pre 65 the home made one should get a run with the older ones.a copy is a copy weather made in 2008 or 1968.you can buy a brand new manx norton c/with 6 speed gearbox made 2008 and ride per 62 whats what point i am trying to get accross.

firko

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2008, 04:48:11 PM »
No argument from me. I was racing dirt track in '69 and there were plenty of Hagon, Elstar, Antig and home made sliders then. It all really comes down to what engine you are using. That old 350 BSA on ebay is never going to be a threat in any class so nobody is going to really care too much. It's a museum piece these days. It's never going to crack the two stroke "chookies" let alone a Jap or a Jawa. I raced my Maico in the 350 class back in the day but I have to enter it in the 500 class pre 70 now.
I was putting up the devils advocate argument basically just for discussions sake but also to let you know that there are people who will take the point to the nth degree if they reckon your bike is not quite right in their view. Just ask Tim, Walter (yss) and even myself who have been challenged by the WA  pest and others in the past. Are you bidding on the bike Jim?

YSS

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2008, 05:29:33 PM »
Peter Lawson :'(

magoo

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Re: WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2008, 05:49:35 PM »
That's the bloke.