Author Topic: The pre-78 solo protest.  (Read 20570 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Nathan S

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 7275
  • HEAVEN #818
    • View Profile
The pre-78 solo protest.
« on: August 11, 2009, 01:51:05 pm »
This thread is not intended to be a mud-slinging match! I have deliberately left out names, riding numbers etc for this reason.
I also invite the webmaster to moderate this thread as tightly as he wishes for the same reason.

I've started this thread for two reasons. The first reason is because I can see the rumours, gossip, half-truths and mis-truths gaining momentum, and if that's allowed to continue, then I fear that they'll develop a life of their own - I can see it becoming one of those 'thorn in the side' issues for the sport for years to come, so I'm attempting to drive a stake through its heart now, before it gets any bigger.

The second reason is simply that I'd hate to have the issue overshadow the efforts of many, many people involved in running a really brilliant event.

I was not personally involved in the protest at all, beyond being delayed in loading my own bike onto the trailer...


At the end of each bike's last race on Sunday afternoon, all bikes were impounded to allow a period of time for protests to be lodgeed, as per the event regs. The bikes from most classes were released after about 20 minutes.
While the pre-78 125s were impounded, it was announced that there had been a protest against three of the bikes, and no bikes were allowed to leave.

After some time had passed, it became apparent that the three bikes had been excluded from the results.

Bike A and Bike B were both a 1978 models, fitted with 1977 model fuel tanks. The 1978 versions are NOT allowed in pre-78 under the carry-over provisions, as they differ in a number of significant areas, including suspension travel, swing-arm construction, and having a floating rear brake.

Bike C was a legitimate 1977 model, however it was fitted with a complete front end (triple clamps, forks, front brake and front wheel) from a 1978 model. This front end features longer forks with 40mm of extra travel, and rubber mounted handlebars (among other differences, no doubt). Although clearly not era-correct, the rubber mounted handlebars were never the issue on this bike, they were simply another indicator of the incorrect forks.

This resulted in the person who lodged the protest being moved up the results, and onto the podium. At least one of the protested riders/owners spent some time inspecting the protester's bike.
No further protests were lodged.

The protest was lodged, heard and determined as per the MA procedure.
If any of the three riders genuinely felt that they were unfairly treated, then they are/were* able to take advantaged of MA's appeals procedure.

In other words: The right bikes were excluded for the right reasons, using the right procedures.




*I don't know what the time limit is to lodge an appeal - that may still be an option, or the time limit may have expired.



From a purely personal point of view:
As a tail-end punter in the class, it made no difference to me whether I was beaten by those bikes or not - I think the exclusions moved me up to 10th outright, or something similarly dismal.
I do understand the frustration and the dissappointment of those that were excluded, particularly if they honestly thought that their bikes were legal. However, I'd suggest that the frustration and disappointment should be directed at yourself, for failing to research these things properly - as the rules say, the rider is responsible for the machine that they present, and for proving its eligibility if required.
If the bikes have previously been raced in that configuration, then perhaps the riders should look at the 'glass half full' aspect and count themselves lucky that they have not been excluded at one of the earlier events where they presented a non-compliant machine.
The reality is that these are significant, performance enhancing components and they do not belong in the era - this is the National Championship so these things matter more that they ever will.
If you're just out for a blat around a paddock, then its just a matter of entering the bike in Evo (or fitting the correct components).

At least one of the excluded riders was heard to question why they were not pulled up until the end of the weekend. This raises two points:
1. Scrutineering is primarily about safety. No scrutineer can be expected to understand all of the finer details every single MX bike made before 1985, no matter how knowledgable they might be.
2. The event regs explained that the impounding process, at the end of the competition, was specifically to allow protests to be lodged.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether the bikes were not right by accident, or not right by a deliberate act of rule bending - they were not compliant and the bikes' owners (and their mates) need to cop it on the chin and learn from the experience.

I believe that the protester is copping some flak, which I think is very unfair - he has every right to dispute significant eligiblity issues, and he was right.
In fact, I'll even go so far as to say that I think it was a GOOD thing that someone has had the balls to ensure that the rules are upheld, rather than continue to allow the slide in standards, without being a pedant.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline Kane Mcguire

  • A-Grade
  • ****
  • Posts: 354
    • View Profile
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2009, 02:09:08 pm »
hi everyone,
in response to nathan s. i agree with every word and i WAS ON ONE OF THE BIKES PROTESTED AGAINST. ( i think he might be right that my bike is a c with a b tank on it)   I really want to thank all the people involved in running the nationals. they were unpaid club people working for days and weeks so everyone else got to ride in a most memorable event. thank you, thank you to those people. the whole event ran so smooth. i hope the injured rider is recovering well. i had a ball and best of all i got gally and gunter to sign my helmet. 

shoey

  • Guest
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2009, 02:21:37 pm »
That all sounds perfectly fair and reasonable.

Nothing at all for anybody to arc up about.


classic 26

  • Guest
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2009, 02:27:12 pm »
Sorry i will keep my mouth shut dont wish detract from a great event.DREW

firko

  • Guest
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2009, 02:30:46 pm »
A well thought out and articulate post Nathan. I share Nathans opinion on this subject and agree with the end result. I have no animosity against those disqualified but going by the rumblings I heard, at least one of the disqualified owners had been fully aware of his bikes illegality for quite a while but still tried to get away with it.
Quote
believe that the protester is copping some flak, which I think is very unfair - he has every right to dispute significant eligiblity issues, and he was right.
This bloke thought long and hard before he did what he did but he'd had enough of seeing blatant cheats getting away with it meeting after meeting. For any class to succeed, the cutoffs have to be enforced. Another point to be made is that it's a big ask to expect the eligibility scrutineer to be an expert on everything. I observed a number of bikes getting through scrutineering that featured obviously ilegal components but didn't notice others. In other words the scrutineers aren't infallible. Protests and reporting ilegalities are the domain of the others in the class.

mx250

  • Guest
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2009, 02:31:12 pm »
;D

Offline motomaniac

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2448
    • View Profile
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2009, 03:07:19 pm »
Sorry i will keep my mouth shut dont wish detract from a great event.DREW
why aren't you at work sunny jim, recovery from the long drive?

Offline motomaniac

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2448
    • View Profile
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2009, 03:23:28 pm »
I never understood this carry over provision that folks keep quoting.
What bikes would be an example of this?and is it in the GCR's?
Also I think the pre 78 125 class was won by NickSmith on a totally legal and outdated/out classed 76 or 77 CR125 ?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 03:27:52 pm by motomaniac »

Offline Tahitian_Red

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1109
  • Mugen ME480
    • View Profile
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2009, 03:36:32 pm »
This is a great post on a very interesting subject.  I've been waiting for something like this to happen at a National event here in the U.S.  A few years back an RM125C won a National Championship in AHRMA's Historic Class (pre-78).  The rider was never warned going through Tech and a competitor never protested the bike.  Port, pipe, ignition, swingarm and full floating rear brake mods are allowed in the Historic class (as well as Simons forks), because they are period correct mods, so I'm not sure the RMC had any real advantages, but the rules are the rules and if he had been protested he would have lost.  Ignorance of the rules is no excuse.

I am a rules committee member and have also been protested and lost in other forms of racing.  It's not easy to come back to the pits the next week and have people point at you and whisper.  I think the best that can come from a situation like this is for everyone to learn and move onward and upward.  The protestor and the protested should not be ridiculed or ostracized.  Race your bikes in the proper class or build a bike that fits the class you wish to race in.  Getting back out on the track and racing is the best way to heal these types of wounds.  I hope all the parties involved have many more years of enjoyable Vintage racing!
The "Factory Novice"
California, USA

'74 Suzuki TM100, '75 Bultaco 250 Pursang, '77 Honda XR75, '77 Suzuki RM125B, '77 Yamaha YZ400D, '79 Honda CR250RZ Moto-X Fox Replica, '83 Honda ME480RD Mugen

Offline GD66

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1109
    • View Profile
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2009, 04:14:29 pm »
Dead right TR. Firstly, hats off to Kane, who has been protested against but has copped it on the chin, and accepted the consequences without a hysterical over-reaction. Good on you mate, and best wishes for the future. It's just a pity that others pushed the rules to the limit and beyond, in view of the fact that this forum had an open line to eligibility for weeks before the meeting. Really, it does the organising club something of a disservice to allow these things to crop up and complicate what's already a very busy weekend for them, but I suppose you can do little more than advise them at scrutinering that they may be eligible for protests. Not sure what the answer is, but these things are usually best-advised and policed by other competitors in your category.... ::)
Nostalgia's not what it used to be....

Offline Viper666

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 841
  • "Yes I bought THAT number plate" so sue me!
    • View Profile
    • Ballarat Rovers MCC
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2009, 04:30:15 pm »
Not being there, not racing "classic" myself and at the risk of putting my foot in my mouth again. (I think I still have a pair of Dunlop K26ers in there from 81) There just a couple of points I'd like to cover and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I stray.

First of all I reitterated the sediments of everyone in agreeing with Nathan. If, and I say if, someone "knowingly", or though ignorance, cheats then they dont have the right to complain when caught and I congradulate Kane for taking it on the chin.

But secondly, as someone who regards themselves at being able to read and interpret most things to do with our sport I do get confused about some of our rules. Given I ride Viper and our rules are a little ambiguous at best is there a way of simplifying them? I've heard of protest, maybe chinese whispers, that guys have protested over nylock nuts being used?
If for instance you put a later model set of forks in but there is no advantage what's the harm? Off the top of my head later model DT175 forks will fit my YZ125E but they are virtually the same.
It is sometimes impossible to get the right or period part. Expansion chambers, not allowed to use a "Fatty" pipe cause they were not of the era. It is still just an expansion chamber and I personally wouldn't run one because they were design for a modern motor's powerband.
You are allowed to run fox shox right? Well they are far superior to my monoshock even with valve work.
And that's another thing, what about all the mods you cant see?
Cant we just look at the mods and deem if they are a unfair advantage?
If we are too tight on rules you may exclude many riders and their bike on technicalities which could hasten the end of our sport.
With so many "Do gooders" trying to shut us down should we be aiding from within.
Basically I'm all about letting people ride, sort out the other stuff over a beer.
I'm not talking about blatant cheating, USD fork disk brakes on a 73 model.
Or case in point above where the bikes were manafactured after a given date but again I say, simplify and look at "mods" with a little common sense.


I await the tirade for my ignorance.


Viper666
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 04:33:15 pm by Viper666 »
Thank the Lord for Melbourne Bitter, anti-inflamatory drugs & an understanding wife.
YZ80H, YZ100G, YZ125E, YZ125F, YZ125G, YZ250D, YZ250E, YZ250F, YZ250G, YZ250H, YZ400F, IT125G, IT250K & a, a, a,      CRF250X???????    

How the FUG did that sh*tbox Honda get in here?

Offline Hoony

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4308
  • Melbourne, Vic.
    • View Profile
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2009, 04:59:19 pm »
Very precise and well written post Nathan, its factual, to the point and doesn't name anyone and above all very interesting reading.

 i also commend Kane for being a true gent in coping it sweet and must feel a little sorry for you as well, but glad you enjoyed the experience of participation just the same.



 
Long time Honda Fan, but all bike nut in general, Big Bore 2 stroke fan.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJoKP6MawYI
1985 Honda CR500RF "Big Red"
1986 Honda CR250RG
2005 KTM 300EXC "The GruntMeister" ( I love that engine)

Offline Nathan S

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 7275
  • HEAVEN #818
    • View Profile
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2009, 05:55:22 pm »
I never understood this carry over provision that folks keep quoting.
What bikes would be an example of this?and is it in the GCR's?
Also I think the pre 78 125 class was won by NickSmith on a totally legal and outdated/out classed 76 or 77 CR125 ?

A couple of examples of carry-over bikes are the 1975 CR125, and the 1975 DT125/175.
The DTs are mechanically identical to the earlier, legal bikes, so there's absolutely reason to exclude them from pre-75.
The CR is a little more complex and interesting. The '75 model has a different barrel to the' 74, but the '75 model's barrel was available in 1974, which means that you could have built a '75 model in '74. This makes the entire '75 model an acceptable carry-over model.

The 78 YZ125E is not an acceptable carry-over model for pre-78 racing, despite its similarities with the '77 model YZ125D. The E has an aluminium swingarm, different frame (even though they look the same at first glance), and a different barrel - and a few other trivial detail differences. As the frame, swing arm and barrel are significant parts of the motorbike, this excludes a stock 125E from being an acceptable pre-78 carry-over model.

The above refers to whole bikes. Individual parts can also be carry-over.

So if you have a 1974 Montesa VR250, and you fitted the identical forks from a 1975 model, then the bike is still pre-75 legal.
Similarly, if you were to take a YZ125E, and replace the frame, swing arm and barrel with D items, then you would have a legitimate pre-78 bike, as the E's wheels, forks, cases (etc etc) are the same as the D items.

The basic idea is that if a part that was made later than the cut-off date is identical/operationally identical to the part made before the cut-off date, then there's no point in prohibiting it.
Yes it is in the manual - within the Classic MX regs.

There are other ways to legally fit non-standard parts:
1. Accurate replicas of parts that were available in the day.
2. Items that are free in the regs - things like rear shocks, exhaust pipes, handle bars, grips etc. Of course, stuff like rear shocks have their own restrictions (travel, remotr cannisters in some eras) which must also be followed. But provided the shock meets those restrictions, then it can be made the day of the race meeting.


And yes, the pre-78 class was won by a bloke on what's supposed to be the worst bike in the field, and its apparently very close to stock!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 06:29:59 pm by Nathan S »
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

090

  • Guest
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2009, 06:04:24 pm »
Excellent work Nathan.
Good on you Kane, great attitude.
I have been involved for 3 odd years in vmx. What i didn't know i asked and if i had an incorrect part (once through not knowing) i was told it was incorrect and i changed it.
Its not rocket science by any means. If you do the right thing there are no problems.
It took balls to be the bad guy and full credit to him. He was disappointed that he made it into the top results due to the protest as that was not his motivation.
Its time to get your shit in order as vmx has grown from a couple of guys getting together for a hack, this is an era based sport and cheaters will be sorted.
Quote
And yes, the pre-78 class was won by a bloke on what's supposed to be the worst bike in the field, and its apparently very close to stock!
Also it was Nicks bike but it was his brother who rode it to a win
Nick did his shoulder early and didn't ride.

Offline motomaniac

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2448
    • View Profile
Re: The pre-78 solo protest.
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2009, 06:35:03 pm »
Great post .


I have one problem though -quote "This front end features longer forks with 40mm of extra travel"

I dont remember C model forks having 40 mm more travel than B models and if they did the a B model bike with C model forks wouldn't turn.
Rubber mounted handle bars weren't on the 125's but then alot of Guys with old wrists prefer them.I don't think that they are a laptime advantage.I remove my standard rubber mounted bars and replace them with solid mounts because I prefer the more positive feel. Just a thought