As we do

[firko]

I'm no Olle Petersson but over the years I've ridden RH74, RH75, Kawa F11M and a 75 KX250 and in my humble opinion reckon it's a long bow to draw comparing the F11M with an RH. The F11 is indeed a good bike but's still based based on the F11 traily and I'd hate to see how much the F11M would lose a drag race with an RH by. My mate that sold his F11M reckoned that the Rickman Montesa Cappra that replaced it was faster. Dave Tanner has both KX250 and RH250 so I'd be interested in his comparison.
Having written a few of those comparo style articles over the years I now reckon they're a bit overblown and don't really prove much. Comparing bikes that are even one year apart is not really very objective as the tides of engineering improvement were moving at a rapid pace back then. Comparing a '73 F11M to an RH74 is like comparing an EJ Holden to an EH. They look similar but that year difference put them worlds apart.

[JC]

I wasn't comparing the F11M to an RH. Just trying to make the point that the 74 KX (not the F11M) is very similar to an RH. No doubt OlleP is the connection. The KX fork damping & shocks were a looong way off, but that was really their only major fault. To fix that is relatively easy these days.  Frame geometry & engine design are very similar to RH. Talk to Suzuki211.

[JC]

Comparing bikes that are even one year apart is not really very objective as the tides of engineering improvement were moving at a rapid pace back then.

Wholeheartedly agree. 

What the F11M should be compared to are bikes available in early 73 when it came out. Against that standard, it holds its head up high.

[DR]

okay sorry, I did get a little over zealous with the converted traily against an RH but in all fairness I still maintain a modded F11 would be a good thing in pre'75. This little extract below is typical and kind of tells me the trail version of the F11 was infact built to MX specs from the outset

Of the Japanese "Big Four" Kawasaki is the last to produce a genuine production motocross model to compete in the booming MX market. Yamaha has been the leader firstly with race kits for trail machines, progressing to production MX machines, to the current series of MX3's; Suzuki produced firstly the TM400 and then late last year the TM250 and finally last month we saw the TM125. Suzuki differed from Yamaha in that they concentrated straight out on the scrambler, foregoing trail bike versions. Honda, long leaders in four-stroke design both for the road and dirt, dropped a proverbial bombshell when the two-stroke CR250M production motocross machine hit the market. Here again Yamaha's trend of progressing from trail models to motocross machines was ignored. One would tend to think that Honda, realizing that they could well miss out on potential sales by procrastinating, jumped right in "whole hog" and spent a lot of money to produce the genuine article first off. Last, but not least, Kawasaki; obviously thinking along the same lines have after lots of development arrived with the Kawasaki 250 F11M. A conventional design piston port induction two stroke which has proved very popular with the trail-riding brigade. Harking back to Suzuki prior to their entrance into the world of motocross, ex-Husqvarna Teamster, Olle Pettersson of Sweden was engaged to design, develop and produce a winning machine. That Pettersson did everything that he was asked to is now much "old hat", as we all know what fabulous Grand Prix machines the Suzuki's are. Pettersson, an exceptional rider, was more or less pushed into the background by the three "Flying Belgians", Robert, De Coster and Goeboers who always took the front running position on the Suzukis. In 1972, Kawasaki obtained his services, and from scratch he has once again channelled his designing and engineering talents into producing a first class motocross machine. One would think that with his success with Suzuki that this new machine would be just another Suzuki in disguise. Not so - it is a completely new model in its own right. With all last years competition to sort out the prototype it is quite understandable that we now have a top line 250 production model in our midst.

I know the frame was designed by Olle and a top US frame builder but the name eludes me ?? The other article is also era and paints a fairly common picture to most tests and articles I've read..

[Marc.com]

The KX fork damping & shocks were a looong way off, but that was really their only major fault. To fix that is relatively easy these days. 

Too true, with a little bit of suspension tuning the KX may not be better than an RH but you can give one a scare. I mean even the humble TM250 can be 'sorted' with a few bolt ons.

[TM BILL]

The KX fork damping & shocks were a looong way off, but that was really their only major fault. To fix that is relatively easy these days. 

Too true, with a little bit of suspension tuning the KX may not be better than an RH but you can give one a scare. I mean even the humble TM250 can be 'sorted' with a few bolt ons.

A few bolt ons frame , forks , shocks , then hopfully it would only weigh as much as single decker bus  dont matter how you dress it a TM 250 will always be an overweight sledge 

[Marc.com]

A few bolt ons frame , forks , shocks , then hopfully it would only weigh as much as single decker bus  dont matter how you dress it a TM 250 will always be an overweight sledge 
[/quote]

Guess I was a little optimistic Bill..... you can put lipstick on a pig...but its still a pig.

Pity Suzuki never built a CR250 beater out of the TM, they had the racing experience to build at least the 74 TM into a better bike.

My understanding is that the TM and RH were developed by seperate teams who wouldn't share technology. Working for a Japanese company I can believe it.

[firko]

This is how you get a TM to go. Lightweight frame, Alloy swingarm, YZ250A Yamaha forks, OW mag front hub, RL back wheel, plastic tank and bodywork = 190lb TM400 
                                 

[Marc.com]

nice, see Bill just a few bolt ons.  Then all you need is an RH250 top end and you have it all.

[TM BILL]

That B&S of firkos really is the goods  i saw it at CD6 and it is very trick and very period 

[firko]

Thanks Bill...It is indeed trick, even if I do say so myself. I spoke to Jens Olsen yesterday at Nepean and organised dropping off the newly arrived full circle crank TS400 engine to undergo his porting and ignition trickery. Then the bike will have an engine to match the chassis. Jens has also agreed to ride it at the Dirt Track Nats at Raymond Terrace in September. He'd be on it for Conondale but unfortunately he's not going.

I've never been a Suzuki kind of guy but this bike and my 'bit by bit' TS90 project are turning me over to the dark side. 
I'm still scratching my head as to what to do with the two TM250s. No, they're not for sale........yet.

[JohnnyO]

Firko what's the go with the steering head on that B&S frame, does it have adjustable head angle via the bolts?

[suzuki43]

Firko welcome to the home of champions.

[DR]

another picture of Firko's Boyd and Stelling..



TS90's must be catching, here's mine as of about 10 minutes ago

[firko]

Firko what's the go with the steering head on that B&S frame, does it have adjustable head angle via the bolts?

Yeah John the B&S frame has an adjustable steering head rake so you can adjust the geometry to suit various tracks and disciplines. The bike looks a tad odd in the photos as it's on full "in" adjustment after showing someone at CD6 how it works. It's normally in a less agressive rake mode for MX.