Author Topic: Chassis Evolution  (Read 20855 times)

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Ji Gantor

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2009, 02:58:49 pm »
If the monocoque framed bikes were not really MX bikes may we assume that they did not contribute to the chassis evolution?
That said than the 1997 Honda CR250 R is still the first MX bike with a aluminium frame.

Shame I liked the Hagons.

Ji

Offline JohnnyO

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2009, 03:42:13 pm »
The speedway and grasstrack frames that i have seen were just regular frames. The motocross frame is the only hagon monocoque i've seen.

TM BILL

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« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 03:45:05 pm by TM BILL »

Ji Gantor

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2009, 04:01:39 pm »
Hi TM Bill and Wasp,
Great additions to the topic.
History is how we move forward.

Ji

Oggy Doggy

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2009, 04:05:29 pm »
Quote
If the monocoque framed bikes were not really MX bikes may we assume that they did not contribute to the chassis evolution?
Ji, the Hagon was indeed a production motocross bike and quite a respectable number were made. The great Vic Eastwood of CCM, BSA and Maico fame rode the monocoques in GPs and UK National motocross hence the 'VE Hagon" name. They were light but failed on many fronts, most notably the difficulty and cost of manufacture.
Because the monocoque failed to inspire further development by other manufacturers doesn't omit it from the evolution of the motocross chassis. It was an experiment easily as important in frame development as the titanium BSA and Husky GP bikes of the 60s. Each had its plusses that contributed to engineering progress and knowledge but at the same time were let down by weaknesses, both structurally and conceptually. Jonesys Hagon is a great relic from an era when motocross engineering dared to delve into different and sometimes daring innovation.

Ji Gantor

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2009, 04:14:11 pm »
Hi Oggy Doggy,
Thanks for clearing that up.
So the Hagon was the first all aluminium framed motocross bike, and it was built in 1972 ?
Do we know what type of aluminium was used?

What was the first titanium framed bike?

Ji

TM BILL

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2009, 04:26:39 pm »
Sorry for  sidelining , Bill did you ever race sidecars against Martin ? Or did he  come in after your sidecar career?  He raced about 88-96 on a lefthander EML .
Martin Hagon was well after my time 1979 1981  :) do you remember who his swinger was ?

The first Ti framed bike would that be the ill fated works BSA that Jeff smith campaigned ?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 04:29:38 pm by TM BILL »

Offline GMC

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2009, 04:41:38 pm »
The Hagon frame featured in VMX was built as an MXer & must have been built around late 70’s as it was designed around the TT 500 motor.
I don’t think it had much success but this is normal for small companies as they can’t afford the big dollars to buy the fastest riders of the day.

Yamaha built a works alloy framed bike I think in the early eighties?
I think it was dubbed the YZM & may have been for Carlqivst ? ( I know the spellings wrong)
It was rumored to be very fragile & I heard they only used a frame for 2 or 3 GP’s before replacing it with a new one. Not sure how true that was but I think it was because of the constant grief that they dropped the alloy frame.

I think the first production alloy frame may go to the Beta “zero” trials bike of around 91.
It was a bit like the Hagon as it had the fuel tank as part of the frame. It was a good idea to incorporate it as part of the structure in order to save weight but becomes a drama once problems occur.

I think it was the Beta that also had a alloy expansion chamber.
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Ji Gantor

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2009, 05:09:01 pm »
Okay so the first all alloy monocoque framed MX bike was the Hagon in 1979?
The first works all aluminium framed MX bike was a Yamaha YZM in 1982? (can anyone post a photo of this bike)
The first all aluminium framed production bike was the Honda CR250 R 1997.
The Beta does not count because it is trials and not MX.

The first works all titanium framed MX bike was the BSA in (what year)? (can anyone post a photo of this bike)

I guess the titanium framed works bikes were hazardous due to the fact that FIM banned the material in frames?

Ji
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 05:10:48 pm by Ji Gantor »

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2009, 05:13:19 pm »
i have found several interesting articles with good pictures o the Hagon yamaha and suzuki 4 strokes and a couple more on CCM and JBR specials and one on the Cheney Yamaha 2 stroke. i saw Reynolds 531 mentioned as frame material somewhere too. i will try and scan all these articles on the weekend. They are all in French so translation is up to you.
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Oggy Doggy

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2009, 05:42:42 pm »
Ji, The Hagon mono came out around 1977. The first ti frame that I know of was the works BSA Victor 1966. Lars Larsson rode a ti Husky in the 1971 season. Below is Ed Youngbloods description of the bike.
In 1971, Torsten Hallman commissioned Pro-Fab to build a small number of titanium frames. One was built to house Husqvarna's tried and true four-speed “egg engine,” and the others were built for the new five-speed engine. Using a 400cc version of the four-speed engine, Lars Larsson barnstormed the support class of the Inter-Am that year, winning four of the six rounds. Modern Cycle (January 1972) reported the project under the headline, “Titanium, the Racer's Latest Secret Weapon.” The machine struck fear into the American racing community, resulting in the 1972 AMA rule book declaring, "Titanium frames will not be allowed in AMA comptition (page 45)." It was believed that titanium would radically increase the cost of racing. This was a fair concern since, during the Cold War era, titanium was considerably more expensive than it is today. Because Larsson has restored this motorcycle with a 250cc engine, it weighs a few pounds less than it did when raced in 1971.

 


Ji Gantor

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2009, 05:47:18 pm »
Okay so the first all alloy monocoque framed MX bike was the Hagon in 1977
The first works all aluminium framed MX bike was a Yamaha YZM in 1982? (can anyone post a photo of this bike)
The first all aluminium framed production bike was the Honda CR250 R 1997.

The first works all titanium framed MX bike was the BSA in 1966  (can anyone post a photo of this bike)

Thanks Oggy Doggy we are getting there.

Ji

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2009, 05:58:06 pm »
What about the funky monocoque Bultaco powered bike that was pictured in the VMX article on Bultaco history (sorry, I'm away from home ATM so cannot reference it). Had a composite name - Something-taco, and was apparently ridden by Pomeroy at some stage. Early 1970s, IIRC.

That was an ugly bike.
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Offline JohnnyO

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2009, 05:59:04 pm »
The alloy frame yzm500 that Carlquist rode was more like '85/'86. I think husky500evo has a photo of it, beautiful looking bike.

Ji Gantor

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Re: Chassis Evolution
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2009, 06:07:19 pm »
The first all alloy monocoque framed MX bike was the Hagon in 1977 (pending the Bultaco)
The first works all aluminium framed MX bike was a Yamaha YZM500 in 1985 (can anyone post a photo of this bike)
The first all aluminium framed production bike was the Honda CR250 R 1997.
The first works all titanium framed MX bike was the BSA in 1966  (can anyone post a photo of this bike)

Thanks JohnnyO.

Ji