Eligilibty scrutineer at the Nationals

[Nathan S]

I doubt that anyone will disagree with you, Col.

I certainly agree that its 95% rider and only 5% bike, particularly if we're talking about stuff that's not obviously, stupidly outside of the rules (like fronting up with a 2009 model bike...).

My interest in the topic is purely about making sure that I don't get any nasty surprises at the track (not that I'm sure that I'm going yet).

[LWC82PE]

i dont think the issues are just about people out to modify their bike to make them better and out perform others and win at all costs and to and try and enter a class, but it is more about because of a lack or parts and wanting or needing to use something slightly later eg the Yamaha front hub. Im wondering if exceptions could be made for things like that as it might help fill the classes. Eg there could be 5 yamaha riders with 1k7 front hubs because they simply cant find 322 hubs but there is no performance gain from the 1K7 front hub. So should the rules not allow these 5 yamahas to enter pre 75 even if the rest of the bikes are 100% Ok? i know i would like to see a full grid of pre 75's race and everything should be done to encourage more entrys and knocking back 5 bikes because of a minor hub difference is maybe a little harsh? These people are trying their hardest to support pre 75 but there can be times when you just cant get the right parts and may have to use something very close thats slightly later.  Will the rules ever become more forgiving to allow somethings, but still  kept tight enough to not allow modifications or parts that are a definite advantage or look not within the period?

[Rossvickicampbell]

Not at Nationals.  The point I made about older class bikes riding up would be a better option than allowing "non era parts"  after all where do you stop when the next guy wants just this little bit more etc......  I also admit I may have to wait a while but I have not NOT been able to find a part yet (not saying it doesn't happen though).  And lets also remember I may not be at the pointy end and actually battling it out somewhere lots further back but I would like to know the guy I am tussling with is riding with the correct bits and pieces as well because my race for 21st and 22nd is just as important and should be just as fair as 1st and 2nd.  Sorry don't think there can be gray in that area.

Rossco

[Nathan S]

I don't disagree with any of that Ross, but to provide a counter-point (I'm going to labour on the Yamaha hub thing, but I'm sure there similar issues that relate to everyone's bike/s - so don't go thinking that I'm obsessing over this particular issue - its just a convenient example):

1. Lots of stuff is legally non-era. Personally, I find a 1K7 front hub to be a lot less visually offensive than a set of modern 'fat bars' - and conventional 7/8" bars are a lot easier to find (and fit) than a 322 hub. Unlike the bars, a 1K7 hub offers no tangible performance gains.

2. Lots of stuff has been accepted for a long time (rightly or wrongly). To suddenly crack down on hubs that are missing nine small, ineffective webs, is to risk upsetting a bunch of riders who have bikes that have been considered legal for many years, including previous VMX Nats.

3. As a rider, I don't give a rat's arse if I'm beaten by someone with the wrong front hub, or a pipe that runs the wrong way, or whatever. Given the infrequency of protests over these issues (and the fact that the protester is generally viewed as a twit when they have protested), I figure that my view is shared by the majority of VMXers.
Maybe I'd have a different view if I was beaten to the silverware by someone who has an illegal set of forks or barrel or too much suspension travel (ie: Something that clearly makes a difference) but until then...

4. Several of my pre-77 bikes have 1K7 hubs. Given how difficult/relatively expensive finding and fitting 322 hubs is, at least a couple of those bikes wouldn't have even been built if the 1K7s weren't acceptable.
Those couple of bikes weren't built to be Nationals bikes (ie: They're low cost shitters), and they're only designed to have some fun at club events - so you could argue that it makes no difference - but are we encoruaging participation in the sport, particularly when the bikes are arguably within the 'spirit of the era'.
Or are we discouraging participation? If so, why is that a good thing?
Even if I look at my more serious (ha!) race bikes, knowing that I'm going to have to chase hubs, respoke wheels, etc, greatly dampens my enthusiasm for the event - making me less likely to turn up...
Good for the sport?

5. Sometimes, riding up an era isn't really an option - if I make it to this year's nats, I'll take a pre-75 125 and a pre-78 one - so bumping the pre-75 bike into pre-78 will mean that I go lose a ride.


Australian car rallying is being killing by its administrators at the moment, through a peculiar mix of utter neglect and pedantic meddling. All of the troops are up in arms over this, and a lot has been said about it, and its invariably been ignored...
The one simple message that seems to have a hope of getting through, is asking them to finish every statement with "....and I'm doing this for the good of the sport".

Now, I'm not claiming that VMX is suffering from the same afflication - this thread shows that our commissioners are actively trying to do the right thing, and I reckon that's great.
But the simple principle of stating "This is good for the sport" is an excellent way of keeping the focus on the outcomes rather than the process.

[Husky500evo]

What if someone turned up with a '77 Montesa VB Cappra , to ride in the pre '78 class ? The rulebook doesn't list them as a eligible bike , even though they are a designated '77 model  .

[mx250]

What if someone turned up with a '77 Montesa VB Cappra , to ride in the pre '78 class ? The rulebook doesn't list them as a eligible bike , even though they are a designated '77 model  .

that's me

But I'll resto first then think about giving the hotshots a run for their money

[Brian Watson]

Dave and All...the one other thing that really amazes me at a Nationals is the amount of bikes that attempt to go thru machine examining with no countershaft sprocket covers..don't even bother with the .."well my bike didn't have one when it was new...so why do I have to now"...The rule has been around since the 70's and hasn't changed so ...please make your own morning easier and cover em up...

The pre 78 thing is all about showcasing a different area of bikes ..the early LTR bikes need to be in their own category...not have pre 75 bikes mixed in with them...

[husky61]

I agree that they should not be mixed as we have to avoid running over those slow old pre-75 riders at all cost.

They are dissappearing at a rapid rate with out running the remaining ones over, soon they may be extinct , maybe we can get a govenment grant to preserve the old dinosours or maybe a capture and breading program or something along that line.
I have it on good advise that the biggest colony of these beasts is in the far western provinces of Australia. They are reputed to be very fast and have all the manoeuvres . You should only approach them with caution ,as if you startle them they will protest loudly.  You dont see them often, but i also have it on good advise , if you leave beer out they become docile very quickly and become very  easy to catch.

 

[Rossvickicampbell]

Husky - when did you last see us ride - bugger - caught out!   and slow old pre 75's - must be me in particular.

Graeme - I have no problem going with the consensus regards riding up a class and was really just after a why it isn't done now a days compared to previously so I can shut my gob over that no hassles.  My only concern with what may occur with allowing "non legal" or some other term parts is where does it stop?  My personal feelings are you are correct about the hub - no arguement there but will it stop there?  I also don't care who beats me (as there are many of those) but I ride pre 75 so should be beaten by a pre 75 not a pre 75 and a bit - and I still think the Nats should be as "pure" as possible.

catch ya.

Rossco

[husky61]

That would have been in Tassie Rossco.

[VMX247]

I agree that they should not be mixed as we have to avoid running over those slow old pre-75 riders at all cost.
They are dissappearing at a rapid rate with out running the remaining ones over, soon they may be extinct , maybe we can get a govenment grant to preserve the old dinosours or maybe a capture and breading program or something along that line.
I have it on good advise that the biggest colony of these beasts is in the far western provinces of Australia. They are reputed to be very fast and have all the manoeuvres . You should only approach them with caution ,as if you startle them they will protest loudly.  You dont see them often, but i also have it on good advise , if you leave beer out they become docile very quickly and become very  easy to catch.

Don't let the first impression be the lasting impressions     
Preservation society well under way.  
Cheers Alison

[evo550]

Yammiefan,
I thought countershaft sprockets only required covers if more than 30mm from outside edge of swingarm

[Brian Watson]

Don't recall seeing a pre 75 bike that would meet those MOMS requirements ...probably not many pre 78 either...

[DJRacing]

The yamaha front hub(1k7) is most definitely a performance enhancing part, after all it still takes the same brake shoes as the (322)     , when at the same time the bike that is racing next to you in Pre75 can run the latest and greatest internals' in the shocks, but that isnt deemed performance enhancing
I'm all for period parts and keeping everything as "pure" as possible, but at what expense?

I understand the concept of consumables and being able to replace them with newer parts, but what happens if you went to your Yamaha shop(or any bike shop) and the 322 hub is supersedeed to the 1k7 hub?  Are hub brake linnings not consumables?  Yet most shocks can be rebuilt or parts remade to look and respond as "pure" but it seems to be easier to buy new ones that are gold anodised/highly polished alloy with modern up to date technology and materials. Yes I can see the "purity" in that, definitely not performance enhancing??

* "pure"....  Rossvickicambell, this is not a go at you, not at all, its just that you used the word "pure" and I like what it means so I have "borrowed" the word from you. This is purely an observation/oppinion of mine, and after all we accept big wide footpegs that were never thought of but a blind eye seems to be cast over them, non performance or performance enhancing?? or is it a safety issue.
 I am fully aware of how hard it is to keep these bikes going and I would have thought a non performance part from a newer model from the same manufacturer would be more in keeping with "purist" than aftermarket modern technology/materials be they consumables or not.

Anyway, sorry guys, a little of track, better get back to the scrutineering Q's and A's.... Top thread Dave

[LWC82PE]

I agree with what you said DJRacing. good points said there. Modern high tech shocks (any brands) seem to get overlooked, but it would be hard to police unless a list was made outlining what sort/brands/features are acceptable for what periods. If was anyone going to the Nationals i would just fit a sprocket cover just to be on the safe side. You dont want to go all that way and be told you need to have one.