Author Topic: Dirt Tracks Future  (Read 14771 times)

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firko

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2008, 11:10:05 am »
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Firko, what are the traditions of dirt track that will be lost forever out of all this???
Where do I start Elsie! Let's go with tracks. The simple concept of dirt track has always been 'speedway with a right hand turn'. By increasing the number of corners, the length of the races and standardizing the sufaces we are taking away the unique Australian developed experience that dirt track currently is and turning into a hodge podge combination of American TT racing, European motard with a touch of motocross thrown in (if the bizarre rumour that a jump is to be included on some tracks is true!). The uniqueness of the Aussie dirt track and the machines that compete on it are being shuffled onto the good ship Obsolete.
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the sliders will be getting a class of there own from 2010...
And hearin lies the whole bunfight that's about to erupt. Tradition in Aussie dirt track is the slider. With the proposed changes the slider will become dormant and unusable on the proposed "technical" tracks with their multiple turns. What a patronising joke it is to announce that sliders will have their own class in 2010. If the proposed rules are anything like the rubbish Penrith club are schlepping out at their meetings where sliders aren't permitted to race against motocross based bikes "for safety reasons" where the rocket scientists at that club have decreed that all of a sudden there is a safety "problem" that has materialised over the last 12 months. One of the unique features of Aussie dirt track since the Hagon style slider first appeared in the early sixties have been the competition between the two types of machines on the same track at the same time trying to achieve the same result....i.e. win the bloody race. The differing cornering styles has produced competition different to any other form of motorsport. Penrith club (and I presume MNSW and MA)  in their illconcieved attempt to "make the sport safer" now plonk all sliders into the one class. This stupid decision sees an AT1 125 Yamaha powered slider in the same race as a fire breathing Godden or GM. Now if that isn't an infinitely more dangerous situation than running similar capacity "chookies" and sliders together I'll bare my arse on National TV!

Now we have an MA and MNSW that appear to have folded under the pressure from outside lobbyists to push the slider into the sad role of being a laughing stock by 1: putting all capacities in together and 2: putting them on tracks to which they are totally unsuited.

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the current state of dirt track discourages new growth into the sport in the modern bikes, eg a competitive 450 needs to have 55HP, it has become an expensive sport and in return competitor numbers are suffering.
How are these proposed changes going to prevent people modifying their bikes? The whole tradition of dirt track harks back to the immediate post war when very few could afford new competition machines so, using home grown bush engineering they modified what they had to produce horsepower figures that the original manufacturers would never have envisioned.
The home modified bike combined with methanol and a lot of individual chassis surgery produced very fast and efficient race machines. That hot up tradition has always been a part of our sport, going from the highly modified iron barrelled Beezas producing nearly 50hp in the 50's right through to Shawn Giles 90hp CR500 in the 80's to the trick CR/YZ450s of the present day. Modifying dirt track bikes is an integral part of the sport. How are the modifications going to be scrutinised? Whata shitfight it'll become if they start to limit engine or chassis mods. The cheats will have a ball finding new ways of beating the system and spectators will miss out on the sight and sound of of a full house race engine, to be replace by soullless proddy machines. You're never going to stop 15k XR80s or anyone spending infinite amounts of moolah on their bikes. If the rules change, they'll find new ways of beating the system, trust me on that! In all forms of racing, restricting machine development with the rulebook has alway failed in the end. What ever happened to 'proddy' road racing or series production touring cars? Gone as major clases because the rules couldn't be enforced. In a nutshell, restricting machinery in an attempt to control spending has eventually failed on most levels.

I fully agree that there should be moves to draw new blood into dirt track. Let's face it, without the vintage movement the sport would be in the shit in many areas. However, much of the blame on dirt tracks downfall can be thrown at our sports administrators who for years have treated dirt track as the second class laughing stock of motorcycle racing. Go back to the seventies and eighties when events like the CIG series saw International fields, the legendary Nepean 6 hour race and other huge promotions. Now there's nothing remotely like that on the calendar. I fully understand that MA is belatedly now trying to do something to revive the sport but by throwing away fifty years of traditions to follow Mr Caslick and Mr Gardners concepts of where the sport should head is an insult to the people who created dirt tracks traditions. 





Offline Graeme M

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2008, 11:46:56 am »
As a DT fan from way back I completely agree with Firko. But...

Why is DT languishing now? Can't only be because MA or MANSW is hopeless when it comes to DT can it? I suspect the sport is just too plain boring for the young guys today. In a time when even the most average of competitors is amazingly quick and huge jumps are the norm, plus the influence of freestyle and so on, I suspect traditional dirt track looks like an exercise in nodding off.

I can see the benefits of the Caslick/Gardner proposal in terms of encouraging greater participation. I know the ACT club has seen a real interest from Juniors in this new form of racing.

I'd hate to lose traditional DT, but I really do think those wonderful days of firebreathing sliders Versus the fast and agile chookies may be gone forever. Perhaps it IS time to start thinking outside the square. After all, we don't see kids riding short travel bikes around gentle rolling fields anymore, do we? MX has evolved, maybe DT has to as well, just to remain relevant in a different world...

Offline pancho

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2008, 02:13:12 pm »
while i agree with a lot of what firko said i dont agree with other parts. like i have said before- No1.dont rubbish people that make decisions on the basis of what they know, if any body has better ideas go to the appropriate venue and express your thoughts.No2  every opinion is valid. i dont know what  mr caslic and mr gardener have in mind but i have no doubt that they have valuable input that should be heard.graeme reved me up a bit but i decided not to do a firko &had a cup of tea instead. i was thinking that coming into the speedway bend at nepean full chat would do more for me as a twenty year old [i was once] than gliding 20 ft up getting no power to the ground! to each his own ! by the way i think GP riders in training would gain more from riding on various tracks with various surface types and different corner configurations and alignments than they would ever get from posing in mid flight with NO POWER TO THE GROUND! in the good old days those antics would have been looked at with disdain.[rightly or wrongly].the blokes at moorebank fishers leap who did the biggest jump didnt win those who got the power to the ground did.
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Offline pancho

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2008, 02:49:20 pm »
2 more points.firko says that tighter corners would muck up the sliders, this brings up the point of specials for instance for some of us who rode things in duplex bsa frames and never learnt how to get the max out of a slider can still have a lot of fun.my xt slider has all its gears so that helps a lot in a 'stop' corner plus i managed at the 2 day charity meet at nepean with my not very reliable special to get 6 hole shots out of 6 starts which i thought was great fun for an old fart ...and i got to the end of the main straight each time before all the pukka machinery caught me...so the specials are still here. there is one other point i disagree with firko, a variety of tight corners can make a big difference to the outcome of a race. but i agree with him in the other point about diferent tracks with different features being a good thing.... 2nd point gate entry money. if money is raised at the gate sufficiently to pay for REAL advertising the sponsorship for bigger and better events will follow, the sponsors want publicity thats why they sponsor..and the days when spectators will put up with lousy facilities at sports venues or any big event in near city venues  is LONG GONE....you can't even park your car of the street for 5 bucks! cheers wally.
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Offline Freakshow

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2008, 06:59:55 pm »
Our club has had a massive resurgance in Dt juniors and it has nothing to do with any of the above, i belive it has been soley on the grounds that al kids can take there Peewee fifty and ride it round a flat track with only one right bend.  my girl wont ride the clubs MX track cause she hates the jumps and i see 50 kids come on DT ride days and 5-10 come to our MX track, so changes arent needed. Pissing about with Fees and gate  cost isnt going to do anything but stop parent paying to come or enter there kids, its not a cheap sport compared to footy boots, what MA needs to focus on is making it Easy and cheap to take up, rather than blead the dwindling numbers with higher fees/licence costs.   Actually lowering it lowering it and increasing numbers to get the same result in $$ with the upside of more envolvement. 

 i Cant speak for interstate but down here our club is strong due only to the soul of the club and its members, and know what is right for its memebrs and tracks and are getting it right without there interferrance.  if it was for MA DT in SA would have been dead years ago which is where Vintage MX is right now here, its dead and they dont give 2 shits. its all about RR and juniors and some belief that motorcyling future is only based on feeding the next world 500 champ.  what about everyother discipline ?  how many DT training camps do they run ?

Now whats the go with the 2 round NAt series concept ? its near impossible to get to the otherside of the country as it is when the each event is in QLD or wherever, but to have to go interstate 4 times a year just to compete at the MX and DT nationals is divisive and very un-austrailian on the rest of the country , that just cant get there more than once a year to each event.   May as well just call it state of origin, if it goes to  rounds interstate as it will only service a few, i just cant see that working to get more bikes to events, quite the opposite

Personally on a local level i can see us this year, on our track licence fees sending back as a rain out after the event, and telling it was cancelled and wended upo a club open ride, rather than continually paying out, letterly funding administration fees to support Road racing camps again or other money pits that seem to only happen for a few interstate riders, or whatever there spending it on, and state MA admin costs that in a normal business cant be justified.

id like to see the proposed changes before i speak my mind, but reading between the lines that survey is very leading in the responses its trying to get to, but thats just my opinion.  each question already has an agenda, its not a fact finding one but a leading one IMHO
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 07:12:42 pm by Freakshow »
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

firko

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2008, 07:00:31 pm »
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i decided not to do a firko
What do you mean Wally?

firko

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2008, 07:17:59 pm »
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Whats the go with the 2 round NAt series concept ? its near impossible to get to the otherside of the country as it is when the each event is in QLD or wherever, but to have to go interstate 4 times a year just to compete at the MX and DT nationals is divisive and very un-austrailian on the rest of the country , that just cant get there more than once a year to each event. may as well just call it state of origin, i just cant see that working to get more bikes to events.
Here's what you do Freakshow. Go to a meeting of your club and get together with like minded members and arrange a committee to set out a game plan to submit an application to MA for the right to run one of those championships at your track. Who knows, if your proposal is as good or better than that put in by one of the other clubs in other states, MA may just appoint your club the right to host the event at your track. That my friend is how the system works.

Until then you'll have to travel, just like the rest of us.

Offline VMX247

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2008, 09:38:00 pm »
Enjoy your club while you can Freaky. :)

You pay for parking Wally................we have been in the bush too long.  :o

I agree with Graeme M (different world) changes are coming for the future,weather we like it or not.  >:(
It happened with the AMC in Britain in the 60's they all grew old and no one was there to replace them.
We also are getting older,sad but very true.While we are on this blue planet keep up the fight,then scream sideways into heaven.

Firko would love to see you in WA.
Best is in the West !!

Offline Freakshow

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2008, 09:44:14 pm »
sorry firko all the club is playing soccer this year, the rest of us are going to ride our Race tracks as private property, national licences aint worth the price, and we ran a Nat a few years back IMMSMC, any how one doenst help if there is another anyway, which you didn t address, the whole national series thing, i still say thats interclub state title stuff
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 09:46:41 pm by Freakshow »
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

firko

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2008, 10:35:39 pm »
Sorry Freaky I misunderstood your post. In reality I have no idea what you are referring to re the
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Now whats the go with the 2 round NAt series concept
but other than that I agree with you.  :-[
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 12:27:05 pm by firko »

Offline pancho

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2008, 12:16:18 pm »
a couple of things i'm picking up, 1... intentions are easily misunderstood in a forum that is not face to face.... i take on board the concept that dirt track racing is a pursuit on its own account and should not be seen as merely a training ground for g.p....the point i was attempting to make re increasing the reciepts at the gate was in relation to providing facilities that modern spectators [especially in city areas] have grown to expect. plus the need to provide through advertising the publicity that sponsors expect in return for there support. how much do city folk pay to see football supercross etc. at the same time i can understand the point of parents paying out for entry thru the gate plus race entry fees plus everything else,but this is a seperate issue. when i first started racing the entry fee included gate entry for rider and mechanic. the first time i had to pay at the gate on top of entries was at amaroo short circuit and i was pissed off slightly more than somewhat. the realities of economy of scale indicate to me that if the gate money paid for the promotion IN A PROFIT MAKING SCALE we could get back to the stage where entry fees paid entitled you to a gate pass....on the point about national championships. the 'tirrany of distance' makes this an impossibility for any thing but a big money sport and it seems to me that the dirt track scene should forget national title events in the form we now understand.may be some one can come up with some other system where results from state titles can be utilised to decide on a winner...but i guess that would have problems!
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Offline VMX247

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2008, 04:33:35 pm »
Wally ,sometimes it can get confusing on the internet with forums.It's a shame internet etiquette lessons aren't given out with each new computer sold.
I highly agree with your above posts,but not paying entry fees on club days.
With the numbers of members in WA country clubs,you can't justify charging them a gate entry fee.
No one would come to the events.  :)
We have canteen,bar,showers and toilets.
We make more money from club days and interclub days.(MA Fees cheaper)
If we have OPEN events the only way to break even is to charge $10 ahead for camping.
The above is at our MX club.
I reckon Freakys club sounds the best yet on this topic.Seems to be running just right.
National events are hard work,but are very achievable on all discipline levels.  ;D
The state results could also decide the winner,just got to get someone to do collate the information.Next lies the problem being,which state is the presentation night held in.
Keep at it  :)
Cheers Alison WA

« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 04:39:25 pm by vmx247 »
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Offline Freakshow

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2008, 10:30:42 pm »
my point firko wasit was eluded in the survey that it would be a Multi round series ? now if that was introduced VMX or VDT how do interstaters get the time off to travel to more than one winner take all event like we currently have ?

i cant go to more than 1 VMX or 1 Dt Nat a year and thats only when they are in a resonable drive, its too far and too much time off work.  if you made it a series you would essentially kill off any interstate representaion at the even other than qld and nsw needs being met, so unless its one event its not going to be a true Australiain title, hence my coment on a "state of origin" cause thats all that willl be there on more than one occasion.

Ali, I cant see a point system working as how do you rate a state tilte win over 20 guys, vs another state were the title holder only had to beat 5 ?

I saw RR Die at mallala due to fees, hardly anyone road racers anymore other than a few kids, and there are no spectators cause of the gate fees.

who in there right mind would pay to see such a pathetic show ? Gate fees are only ever paid by parents and girlfreinds anyway so charging gate dont help anyone least of all the already stretched familes involved.   

IN the US Promoters PAy riders and have purses, not plastic trophies, until MA pay out at the local level from the pool of fees they leach out of the grass root sports, its always going to be an enthusiats only sport, run and enjoyed by those who do it for the enjoyment, its a balance.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 10:35:23 pm by Freakshow »
74 Yamaha YZ's - 75 Yamaha YZ's
74 Yamaha  flattracker's
70  Jawa 2 valve speedway's

For sale -  PRE 75 Yamaha MX stuff, frame, motors and parts also some YAM DT1,2,A and Suzi TS bikes and stuff

Offline VMX247

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2008, 11:24:16 pm »
quote= Ali, I cant see a point system working as how do you rate a state tilte win over 20 guys, vs another state were the title holder only had to beat 5 ?

Transponders supplied by MA     ;)  :D

ps we are just discussing amongst our selves here ,doesn't seem to many others posting  :-\
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 11:27:46 pm by vmx247 »
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Offline pancho

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Re: Dirt Tracks Future
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2008, 12:37:22 am »
it seems that we all agree pretty much about most of this...wouldnt it be a beaut system for a national championship event  if all the state c/ships produced a state champ who then was sent to the aust.championship event [where ever] WITH ALL EXPENSES PAID BY MA and meeting the winners from all the other state champs in say a 5 round event decider at a national champs event with support events. should this remain a pipe dream or can we get the big ma to support the australian home scene instead of trying to make individual ma office bearers look big on the intrnational scene? i have been already involved with submissions on other matters that have been made to ma after considerable thought & investigation only to have the submissions in effect ignored. must be time to go to bed im getting over reved ..cheers wally.
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