Where does it stop

[vmx42]

You gotta love Americans and their guns. I hate to say it, and it might come as a huge surprise, to some, that the vast majority of Aussies don't want a gun. Simple as that. So no need for any pity on that front.

The most ironic is the position of the far right Christian Fundamentalist Republicans and their childish facination with guns - its shows that they haven't actually read the Bible - or maybe they just inserted a few extra parables in the US version to suit themselves. It is a 'FACT' [as that smiling empty headed rocket scientist Ms Palin says] that they have no problem rewriting history to suit and support their myopic, blinkered view.

True liberty doesn't come from the barrel of a gun. The truth is that being a slave to that kind of thinking is just a bad as being beholden to a bank due to a short sighted lifestyle based on excessive credit and unquenchable material possession.

And as for the fear that a new [or any] government might have to raise taxes to help fix the current situation in the US - heaven forbid, they wouldn't dare!! The unfortunate reality is that the only way to pay for the Billions being spent [and owed] is to increase tax or then again I suppose you could just borrow the money from the Chinese or Arab Emiriates…
VMX42

[Maicojames]

Ya know, I understand the excesses that have brought about the current situation.
If you read my post, I am not defending the rants of Palin( where the hell did she come from). In fact, I support what I think in the US is considered reasonable regulation of firearms. I do, though support ultimately the right to own guns for the honest citzen.

I am not suprised that many or most Aussies wish not to own firearms. Again, if you read my post carefully, I made no implications of the contrary. Perhaps I was unclear, though-The right of the indivdual citzen to own guns is the only contrary opinion I hold  to so much of what has been said here. I beleive I offred no pity on that issue, but rather only a different opinion.

As far as faith, I think the church has been the largest block to people enjoying fullfillment in their faith. Further, I tend to keep my religious views more private than most other so called "conservatives".  I agree with you statements about the effects of the extremists, though both right and left wing.  Recently, "conservatives" have both created new words, and changed the connotation of many others. So, we are in agreement on that.

Incidentally , I am no "Christian Fundamentalist Republican" either. Though it is intersting to possibly be labeled as such for supporting gun ownership. LOL
Still, I see your viewpoint  along with some labeling , and offer that is justifiable.
Maybe if I see you in Jefferson next year, we can have a nice dark ale and find that we agree much more than we disagree( which I suspect).
James
 

[211kawasaki]

I dont think Ive enjoyed reading a thread like this for years, nice that we are all so politicaly aware.

The reason why the dollar is so low at the moment is due to the American inverstment organisations taking their cash out of everything and putting it in a box under a bed or the equilivant bond at .5% interest. The perceived risk and the reaction to it will secure a downturn for 12 to 18 months in my view and there isnt too much we can do about it except prepare and be cautious with our cash. Most Australians will not realise they are in any sort of trouble untill Xmas and the months after so watch out.

As for America - they are consumers without being producers, that in combo with their have it now mentality and credit is what screwed them. What really got me was when Bush was saying there was a need for the "rescue package" so people could get credit again - thats the problem !!! and a black / white example of how stupid Bush is.

Roll on 2009

211

[vmx42]

Hi James,
I wasn't aiming my comments at you [or I would have said so], although your post did provide the inspiration to comment. I was just offering an alternative view so please don't take it personally, they were just observations from afar and not directed at any individual.

Maybe pity was the wrong word, but I did have a bit of a chuckle at your comment that the only liberty we don't have is the right to carry arms. I think the desire for those kind of gun rights is a singularly American condition, that is not shared by the majority of the rest of the world. If you guys are happy with it, then that is fine, but it is a strange thing that it plays such a huge role in US politics. And the linking of a supposedly Christian political movement to the gun lobby is bazaar in the extreme - can't see that the Pope would be carrying a side-arm under his robes. Then again maybe he is?

As for having a beer, in Jefferson or Sydney, I agree I don't believe we would have a problem although I don't know that you would be able to convince me of the superiority of Maicos!! But then again, if we kept drinking anything might be possible.

Keep the different opinions coming, as Dave says it makes for far more interesting reading. I don't log onto this site expecting to agree with everything that is being said [or I could just sit at home and talk to myself] but it is the exchange of opinions from VMXers all around the globe that makes it interesting and the fact that we sometimes branch out beyond VMX to discuss politics, the environment or even cultural differences only makes it more intersting. I certainly don't take it personally although sometimes it does sometimes challenge my views. It would be far worse if we didn't have varied opinions, or forums to discuss them as it would probably mean that the barstards in power had finally won.
Speak to you soon,
Thanks
VMX42

[Lozza]

I would wonder just how many Americans are shot with  'unloaded' guns or how often the 'family protection 38 Special' gets used in a domestic violence situation against another family member? As far as assault rifles are concerned they are designed with a single purpose to KILL, there is really no justifiction to even want to own one.How many uni,school or work massacre/suicides does there have to be?
Back on topic, I have to agree with Tim Costello on why was it so easy for the worlds leaders to find so much cash in such a short amount of time, when NGO's have to beg for years to get tiny fractions of these amounts to fix easily preventable diseases, famine and grubby wars in third world countires?

[Maicojames]

I couldn't have said it better, in fact I was about to post something about how I enjoy the diversity here-and read your post.

As far as Maicos, if you get me to drink enough I might even like Husqvarnas( well, that's a stretch ). To clarify, even if it was aimed at me-in global terms it is certainly understanded. The past eight years have done nothing to promote America's interests abroad. The events have further decayed the perception nationally, and more so internationally of Americans holding views in the center or anywhere to the right of center. I am but 40, and remember a time when after researching issues-could vote a party ticket. That seems a lifetime ago......but I look forward to a time when my own economic outlook enables me to visit Oz and race with the most dedicated VMX enthusiasts in the world.

BTW, I personally have ZERO credit card debt. I still owe on my Ford pickup, my Kia Spectra ( though the fuel $ savings have been greater than the payment and increased permiums), and my mortgage-which is a fixed rate.

As far as the stats for gun accidents, home portection weapons used for domestic violence, I have no figures. As far as assault weapons, if they are made to KILL, the same can be said for handguns, and ultimately all firearms. For protection, that is the point. Let's say that you broke into my home to bulglarize, and were startled, then confronted by me? Now, I am an average size bloke at 6ft 2, and 230lbs, but you are armed-I am not. You shoot me, I die. This leaves my wife and kids in one hell of a nice postion, now doesn't it? Or perhaps my wife comes home in the day to find a home invasion?  This is why I believe in owning guns.
I will not try to justify the horrible shooting sprees here, like the Littleton, Colorado killings, or the Port Arthur Massacre-and agree controls are needed.

 BTW, my father was murdered in 1992. The pos was convicted, but was released upon a technical appeal to the Supreme Court in 1998. He served time from conviction in 1994 to 1998. Four years for KILLING a man-leaving broken pieces for my stepbrothers and sisters to pick up, and scars that will never heal for his family. dad was an avid hunter, and competitive shooter as well ( owned a few .17 cal rifles). Dad never owned or carried a handgun, though. Given the circumstances where he was fatally shot, I wonder if we would have him today if he had.
James 

[eno]

Interesting dillema really, most of my 8 years of VMX has been funded with borrowed money & lashings of credit card, VMX magazine subscription being no exception either.
Now it would seem the boot is being put into us punters for being dumb enough to borrow. Makes me think about how it would effect manufacturers & suppliers of vintage mx goods if people like me who borrow pulled the pin.

I don't discuss politics or religion.

[vmx42]

Lozza,
I was reading some detailed editorial on one of the last school massacre at a US University. The author went into great detail describing the situation and the events that lead to somebody going home to collect their guns and show those guys that he couldn't be pushed around. The end result was bloodshed and carnage. An absolute tragedy.

In the washup following the event, teachers and lecturers at the college were shouting loud and clear that something had to be done. The situation was untenable. Something had to change!!!!!!! And NOW!!!

So what did they [the supposedly intelligent educators] want? Did they want guns banned from the campus? No. Did they feel that the campus needed additional security? No. Did they want students to have psycological councelling? No.

No, what they wanted was the right to carry concealed arms onto campus and into classes to enable them to defend themselves.

Yeah, logic like that will fix the problem.
VMX42

And ENO, the current financial problem is partly due to excessive credit, spent by people who couldn't pay it back. Nobody has ever stated that credit is bad, so long as it is well managed. I am sure you haven't bankrupted yourself with your VMX passion.

And your point of what will happen if you stop spending is a good one. As the economies of the entire Western World are based on consumer spending we are in a right pickle. How do we keep the economies ticking over whilst trying to only use responsible levels of credit. This is a problem that is going to haunt us for decades and we haven't even touched on the relationship between consumerism and the degeneration of our environment. Add this to the previous problem and we are really in deep shite.

It is your right not to discuss politics or religion, as it is our right to do so if we choose too. I don't think any internet forum is the right place to seriously discuss religion but I only brought it into my policial comments because the Republicans in the US use their supposedly superior religious believes as a point of difference between the two main parties. I believe that religion should play no direct part in politics it is only use as a devisive tactic and to cloud the real issues.

Lastly, MJ, I can't imagine the pain you went through with the death of your father my heart goes out to you and anybody else that has been through something similar. If I was put in a similar position the maybe my opinion would change - don't know - I suppose it could go either way. Guns in society are a huge problem and after all this time [and with so many millions of guns already in society] I don't think anybody has a real solution to the situation, it has to stop somewhere. But how and where, who knows? I just worry about our kids and the kind of world they are going to inherit.

[firko]

I can never understand why Americans have never embraced socialism when the very heart of democracy (and republicism Jared) is " a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people collectively, and is administered by them or by officers appointed by them". To my way of thinking, true socialism is closer aligned to the democratic system than the capitalist system that rules supreme. I think that an elected government body using the peoples tax dollars to distribute services like health and education would be more in line with the the beliefs of a democratic society than in trusting those vital rights to a private entity that is in the business purely to make profit from distributing those services.
As the American system stands now we have a major portion of the tax dollar going towards projects that have no obvious benefit to its citizens such as the huge military system that is, according to the United Nations and other bodies, at least three times larger than America needs to maintain domestic security. The space race has also eaten up trillions of tax dollars and despite the obvious positives that have come from it such as satellite communications, Americans are still burdened with the tax drain of unnecessary moon and mars exploration that have little or no benefit to Joe Average.

Imagine if those tax dollars were used by elected government bodies representing the people to distribute health, education and other services that benefit the American taxpayer? Then and only then would America be able to call itself a true democracy.

[shorelinemc]

Bugger now one of my other passions is getting slammed here.I fall into all the bad catogories-white middle aged male,(also a chauvanist too so my wife and her sisters say)I ride a bike -must be a bikie ,ride a dirt bike -enviromental vandal,own a 4wd bigger enviromental vandal,used to own a semi trailer drug taking enviromental vandal and menace on the roads own and collect firearms weirdo,potential killer,self worth issues,also hunt that one gets even worth. we tried to get into place a system where if a doctor thought they patient could be a loon they  should be reported to the police to check to see if they had a firearms lic or to check when one was applied for ,evidently that would be a violation of your civil rights so lets just target everyone.no i dont need to own a rifle but then you dont need to own a vintage polluting 2st motorcycle.sorry this went off track but remember most of the gun haters hate you too noisy motorbikes nasty fisherman horse riders -for spreading horse shit .  robin

[vmx42]

Hey Shorelinemc,
You really have stacked up the 'vices' haven't you.

I don't think anybody is questioning your right to be a sporting shooter, but that is very different from every householder having hand guns and assault rifles. But as you say it is always far easier to target everybody than just finding the real culprits.

Sure are lots of questions coming from this thread.
VMX42

[DJRacing]

The subject of this thread is spot on "Where does it stop".

There is a saying and it is "The buck STOPS here". It applies to many things that have been discuss in this thread. The money situation will right its self, that is just the way the finacial market opperates. The bigger the crest of the wave is, the deeper the trough. This has been proven time and time again.

The thought of a wealthy nation not taking care of the weak/less fortunate/ill or injured is truly a nation living in fear or paranoia. The land of the free, so long as you can afford it?? When, in a civilized world, is it humane to refuse people healthcare or the necessities of life?? Is it went you havnt got the insurance to cover the cost? Greed, the Money of all Evil??

I have been a gun own, and I use to enjoy hunting in the bush over here, but to consider my guns as "protection" is only fuelling the belief that everyone wants to shot you. If you buy a gun for "protection" then you must be willing to use it, which is a very scary thought. How many people own guns for "protection"?What is the value of another human beings life?? The cost of a bullet it would seem. 'Liberty' does not give you the right to bear arms, but it does give you the right to live freely.
Common sense would or at least should tell us that the more 'living in fear' and unjust happening in the world today can only be amplified by fighting fire with fire. Yet we still do it.

As for religion, how many people have died in the name of religion?? and, continue to do so.


When will common sense become the front runner to the way we live our lives?? instead of P.C. paranoia that has made people irresponsible for there own actions, yet at the same time tied individuals hands so tight that behaving normally is impossible.

[TM BILL]

Hey Eno who do you think the Pope votes for  ;

[magoo]

I've always found a great degree of amusement in the term " Sporting shooter". What is a sporting shooter? I reckon it's someone who gets his jollys from blowing the head off some innocent marcupial, mammal, reptile, bird, or anything else with a heartbeat with no way of defending itself.
Or maybe a whole ring of circles and the hero of the day is the one who blows away the smallest circle on the target. Or even a tin can. forking whoopee. I'd rather be a "sporting motorcyclist"
And if I ever hear the term " Guns don't kill people, people kill people" I'm gonna kill the prick that says it!!!
Now I feel better.

[oldfart]

Its the prick that pulls the trigger !!! its like your bike Magoo it won't hurt you when it's parked up .