Author Topic: The humble 250 Maico  (Read 30600 times)

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Offline JC

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2008, 09:08:21 am »
Gents,

A few tho'ts on the 4sp box. I'm not convinced its much of a disadvantage on most tracks (unless there's a loong fast straight or two). Perhaps its more psychological. The ratio spread (1st gear ratio divided by top gear ratio) of the 4sp Maico is 2:1 w a fairly good close spread of ratios. In fact the 'snores 1st 4 ratios are very close the the maicos.

The ratio spread of most of the close ratio 5sp bikes is about 2.2 or 2.25:1. But what do most 5sp bikes do? Start in 2nd gear & use only the top 4 gears on most MX tracks. ie effectively operate as a 4sp on the track.

Keep a larger countershaft sprocket or two in the toolbox & you shouldn't be at too much of a disadvantage.

W.r.t the power, I'm still of the opinion the main limitations are the pipe & inlet, w the trans specs being a bit radical too. Which to fix 1st is a bit of a chicken & egg situation. The pipe/stinger/baffle cone has to be fixed to make reasonable/decent power, it seems to me. But you've still got serious strangulation at the inlet. With the size of the ex & trans ports, it also seems to me you could get some serious power out of the engine if you fix both. But remember the max limit of 8750rpm for reliability.

To give some idea of the effect of removing the basegasket, IF that safely lowered the barrell by 1mm, you would reduce the ex duration by 4degs (to 183deg) & the trans by 5degs (to 129deg), but increase the inlet dur'n by 4deg (to 164deg). Worth considering. Thats getting closer to RM250B specs.

Combustion is apparently 'sweetest' w a 1.0 - 1.5mm squishband. Its worth checking/adjusting. (It will of course be diff from standard if you lower the barrell)

If I had the port widths, I could calc the time-area values & be more conclusive. Until then, my hunch is as above.

Offline JC

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2008, 01:18:34 pm »
PS  I'm lead to believe the 73-75/6 cylinders were much the same inside so if anyone has a cylinder in that range on the bench & can measure the width of the ports, that would suffice. I'll calc time-areas from that.

Its not hard to do if you use a pair of dividers (from a compass set). Just open them up to the width of the port inside the cylinder, then pull them out & measure the distance.

Lewo81

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2008, 06:58:00 pm »
Just dug out the lightened crankshaft and measured for anyone interested. Just for a reference as the amount removed was I think 10%. This amount could safely be increased as this crank made no noticeable difference. Maybe if more was removed throttle response may change but I don`t believe lightening the crank will in any way increase power or acceleration. The weight of maybe a 0.5 kg of crank mass against a 100 kg bike and 80 kg rider is not going to change anything, also nothing changes in relation to filling the cylinder with extra air and fuel.I would only consider this if rebuilding the crank as pressing apart a good crank to machine it in my opinion be a waste of time and effort. Below are the measurements I ended up with.
Each crank wheel is 22.7 mm wide,
Diameter is 121.8 mm.
Good luck, Lewo.

Offline Lozza

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2008, 07:19:43 pm »
That would be 100% correct. VHM charge many many $$$ for their 'heavy' cranks for RS125 road racers, doesn't alter output makes abig difference to lap times.
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline JC

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2008, 10:29:08 am »
D,

Thanks for measuring the crank. This is perhaps a good time to have a bit of discussion on flywheel-effect, as T250K suggested above (or on another thread).

It certainly deserves consideration independant from the power production of the engine, but there is some overlap.

On those dim'ns, compared to a typical Jap bike (except YZa/b which have hollow flywheels!) the Maico crank is 13% heavier, & 11% larger dia - which is just as significant. Why?

Flywheels are storage devices (the mechanical equivalent of a battery) that operate via rotational momentum. Momentum stores energy which can either be absorbed or given up for short periods (just like a battery does electrically).

Now linear momentum is just the mass times the velocity. In the case of flywheels & angular momentum, that velocity is proportional to the dia of the flywheel as well as rpm. And its the extra dia where the Maico carries the extra weight so its a two-fold multiplyer effect.

So, as a rough approximation, the flywheel-effect of the maico is 1.11x1.13 (= 1.25) that of a typical jap 250 at the same rpm.  ie.  25% greater, & from memory thats about how it feels too. Its considerable.

It may seem like 0.5 - 1kg extra flywheel weight is insignificant compared to a 100kg bike + 80kg rider, but once you get past optimum, its the-straw-that-broke-the-camels-back scenario. An extra 0.5-1kg spinning at 120mm dia @ 8000rpm is 0.5-1Kg moving at 50m/sec, which is a considerable force to be overcome.

But what effect do flywheels have in practice? Frankly I laugh every time I hear/read: "put a flywheel weight on to give it some torque" or "lighten the flywheel to give it some power" as if the flywheel can produce torque/horspower itself. Torque & horsepower (which are directly proprtional to ea other via a mathematical formula) are produced only by how much fuel-air mixture you combust, at what rpm, & how efficiently you harness the energy released.

If you do dyno runs w the same spec engine but w diff flywheels weights, stabalizing the rpm after you've raised it for ea reading, the diff in torque/power will be all-but negligible & probably not measurable.

However.... lets not forget the storage/momentum effect. When you are lugging an engine the flywheels (if sufficient weight, like the Maico) can give-up energy for a short period, & that is why they're so popular on trials bikes. Conversely when you accelerate the engine up its rev-range the flywheels absorb energy that something else must supply, ie the engine. (in much the same way you have put energy into a child's spinning-top/gyrscope to get it up to speed).

In that situation you have to first overcome the momentum-effect which holds it back. Plus you are raising the flywheels to a higher energy state (higher rpm) which requires energy input (just like the battery/spinning-top). That's the situation where too-heavy flywheels can & do hold back acceleration.

The test for this would not be a dyno run, but a roll-on acceleration comparo (w other effects neutralised)

It seems to me its made worse on the maico by it not having a very fat midrange to overcome that extra flywheel-effect when accelarating up the rev-range. On the other hand, the YZ(a/b)s also lose out cos of too-little flywheel effect, losing any potential gains in useless wheel-spin.

Obviously, if yr riding style is to use the breadth of the powerband coming out of corners rolling the power on smoothly from lower in the rpm range (as mine is) you are going to be held back more by too-heavy flywheels than if yr style is to keep the rpm up in the corners & row the gear lever. (Unless its a slippery track surface.)

On the other hand, heavier flywheels can be a distinct advantage for the average rider in the drag-race to the 1st corner, in that the momentum-effect tends to keep the engine spinning in its higher-rev/higher-power range rather than falling below it.

So it seems to me there is an optimum flywheel weight for every engine/track-condition/riding-style combination. Both too-heavy & too-light can affect acceleration to some degree. They also affect ease/difficulty of riding. To my mind/style its the spanish who got it in the sweet-spot best. Yam went too far one way, & Maico too far the other.

T250K also asked about the flywheel-effect of clutch weight & rear-wheel weight. It seems to me these are minimal, probably not even noticeable to the average rider, mainly on account of the significant reduction in rotational velocity due to drastic gearing reductions.

Having said that, I recall one incident when Marty Smith's mechanic replaced the rear tire on his RC125. He came back in complaining that the bike felt as slow as a tractor. They found that the new tire was 2-3lbs heavier & Marty felt it. OF course the effect would be multiplied by higher unsprung weight giving less traction as well.

But yr perfectly right, DL in saying its a lot of work reducing flywheel wt, & I wouldn't consider it either unless the bike needed a new rod/big-end. And then I would be skimming it off the OD of the crank where possible, where it has most effect.

You are also perfectly right in saying it does nothing about the intake limitations of the std Maico. Same about the pipe/stinger, & the transfer ports/timing. Those need to take MUCH higher priority.

Apologies for another lengthy post, but thinking things thro from 1st principles explains/resolves most problems.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 01:42:01 pm by JC »

Offline Lozza

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2008, 01:45:49 pm »
Again your making to many assumptions John and the maths are miles off.As above heavy cranks have advantages over light cranks.

http://www.vhm.nl/VHM/indexcrankmod.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline JC

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2008, 06:16:39 pm »
Yes I know Loz. I nearly said as much, but I was trying to simplify the maths into something understandable for the average VMXer, avoiding the integral calculus along the way, but giving some approximate measure of its effect.

Offline JC

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2008, 09:57:00 am »
Loz, Having had a chance to look at yr suggested web-sites, I maybe thick, but I really don't see what the VHM site is supposed to prove/disprove. Unless I've missed something, all it really says (thats relevant) is that some bikes can benefit from extra flywheel wt. I've never doubted that, & tho't that was plain in my post.

And I have to question the relevance of the example of an RS125 roadracer to a 73 Maico 250 MX, which is obviously what's being discussed here. Have you ever raced/ridden that model Maico? Just about anybody who has notices the heavy flywheels & feels its slow.

Regarding the other website, I doubt if 1 in 1000 VMXers could care. I'm well aware that the maths for angular momentum (moment of inertia) is much more complex than linear momentum & if you want an error tolerance of +/- 0.1% or even 1% then be my guest - do the complex mathematics or use a computer analysis. For the purposes of my discussion a ball-park figure is all that was required.

Likewise the assumptions. Its hardy uncommon in engineering analysis.

"The moment of inertia of an object about a given axis describes how difficult it is to change its angular motion about that axis.  For example, consider two discs (A and B) of the same mass.  Disc A has a larger radius than disc B.  Assuming that there is uniform thickness and mass distribution, it requires more effort to accelerate disc A (change its angular velocity) because its mass is distributed further from its axis of rotation: mass that is further out from that axis must, for a given angular velocity, move more quickly than mass closer in.  In this case, disc A has a larger moment of inertia than disc B.

The moment of inertia of an object can change if its shape changes.  A figure skater who begins a spin with arms outstretched provides a striking example.  By pulling in her arms, she reduces her moment of inertia, causing her to spin faster (by the conservation of [[angular momentum]]).
"

That is taken from the wikipedia website, & that is precisely what I sought to describe in my earlier post.

With all due respect, I'm not interested in one-up-manship. I'm just trying to help those VMXers who have such a bike understand its shortcomings & what maybe done to overcome them. ie get the information out there in laymens terms; not be coy about it.

Its a bike/engine I'm familair with & interested in (& have considerable info on), having raced one for 2yrs back in the day, probably spending 100's hrs on it. I don't pretend to be infallible, but I trust others can benefit from the analysis.

mx250

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2008, 10:58:44 am »


....although you are taking all the fun outa VMX. What fun would there be if we only rode and raced and didn't do a little reverse engineering correcting the mistakes of the past. ;) 8) ;D
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 11:01:19 am by mx250 »

Offline Lozza

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2008, 11:44:08 am »
I would love the time to type a 10 page summary on all the things that could be wrong with this engine.What I am trying to highlight is oversimplications and lots of theory without field/dyno tests is basicaly doesn't help anyone.As problems could be all,part or none of what's been outlined.Also engineers might do things we might think is 'all wrong' but in fact we don't have a full and proper understanding of engine dynamics. As with the heavy crank, which I know that 99% of 125 racers no little about or a very dissmissive of...a heavy crank improving lap times...???? However it does exactly that and priced accordingly.As a very wise GP level tuner told me "an assumption is an error, yet to be uncovered" ;D

Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline Maicojames

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2008, 03:49:11 am »
JC, still need port widths and heights etc.? I just FOUND my 76 250 engine-it is more assembled than I thought too.

I will give a Maico 250 comparo of an 83 Maico( though I have ridden 250s from Sq Barrels to Radials, Aws, Magnums etc.) About 89 my friend( mate?) took me with to buy a nice 83 Maico 250 Spider. I had an 81RM250 at the time. Soon after, I bought an 89 RM250. We practiced often on a high speed dry slick makeshift track ( about 2.5 mi long) then.

The 89 RM would run and hide from the Maico-as would the 81 RM250 ( to a lesser degree). We also had an 85 DR250 4 stroke. The DR was the ultimate when we raced for ten or more laps around this track-by lap 8 or 9 you would catch the two strokes as they spun the tire and topped out on straights-except the Maico. I am just saying that , I think Maico kept heavy flywheels, conservative porting, and timing in the 250s up to 83.
 I did ride a Rage Racing modified 81 reed 250( decked, ported, lightened stuffed crank, V Force CR reed block- Pro form pipe) that was like a modern 250-quick revving and all-very fast- 2 lenghts ahead of my 77440 until top of 3rd gear. Next fastest 250 Maico was a Sq Barrel-1972, and another one -1971. Both of them ported with lightened cranks. The 71 crank lost too much effect, but the 72 bike was primo-an excellent 250 in almost any condition. So, the seatof pants and race to the first turn measure of this-in my experience, is that the flywheel mod and porting can work well if done properly. Yes, I have also ridden both YZ250a, and YZ360( I think that was a B though) too extreme the other way.
This is a very good discussion-especially compared with the US board where we discuss how much a few hate Dick Mann, and what dickheads some of us are for supporting him etc.
Kawboy-keep it going, because if you can get the throttle response up slightly and drag another 2-3 hp out of a radial/Aw 250 -you will have one of the best 250s on the track.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 08:51:25 am by Maicojames »
Life is suddenly very Monaro

Offline JC

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2008, 09:28:49 am »
Thanks for yr encouragement James,

Yes it would be good to have the 76 AW porting specs to see in what direction the factory went in its development of the 250.

Yr comments about the Maico 250s you've ridden are interesting also.

Wrt flywheel lightening specifically on the Maico, DL checked for me & the balance holes are only 3mm from the edge of the flywheel, which severely limits skimming, where the weight loss would have most effect on inertia & is uniformly removed around the flywheel. If you start drilling, there are so many considerations/complications it hardly seems worth it. eg you cant drill near the crankpin cos of pin & balance holes etc, so you'd have to be v careful where you drilled & rebalance etc.

Ideally it would be nice to have lighter flywheels on the Maico, but in practice it hardly seems worth the difficulty

Its probably worth following up w a word about assumptions. The problem is not w assumptions per se. The problem is when they are invalid assumptions. Every engineer knows that assumptions are common in engineering analysis/design/calculations, be it statics, dynamics, fluid mechanics, thermodynamics etc. In engineering terms, assumptions are approximations - educated guestimations. They are invalid if they are outside the error tolerance required or just plain wrong to start with. The better it approximates the real situation, the better the assumption.

A good eg is in expasion chamber design. Tuned length is dependant on the speed of sound which is dependant on temp, which in any engine/chamber, itself dends upon a host of variables. It varies thro the chamber & w time after ex port opens. So what do you do? All the 70's formula just assumed a constant average temp. It got you in the ballpark & you 'trimmed the sails' from there. Even w computer analysis/simulation, you still have to make some assumptions.

Offline JC

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2008, 12:21:38 pm »
Gents, I can now post the specific time-area calculation results w reasonable confidence. These are not difficult to do (the maths is quite simple) so anybody can check them, but you need to be meticulous w measurements & accounting for direction of flow so you get mean cross-sectional area not port-window area.

Lets be very clear that all I'm doing here is comparing this engine w widely accepted 2stroke theory & practice from the 70's. Nothing more. The values I'm comparing w were determined (empirically it seems) by Yamaha engineers, published in SAE papers, & circulated by people like Gordon Jennings. It is generally regarded as being fairly definitive in analysing such engines

Accepted values/range for the day are (in sec-cm2/cc):
   EX  0.00015-0.00016
   Tr   0.00008-0.00010
   In   0.00014-0.00016

Values we measured/calc'd for the 73 Maico cylinder at 8,000 rpm are:
   EX   0.000174
   TR   0.000118
   IN    0.000103

It quite clearly shows that EX & TR are quite excessive (about 10% & 20% respectively) & IN is quite deficient (to put it mildly - about 25%). Which verifies what I said before.

Or to put it another way,

   EX is suitable for peak power at about 9,000rpm
   TR for about 10,000rpm
   IN for about 5,500rpm

Remember, mean piston speed of 4000ft/min is about 8700rpm, beyond which reliability suffers. Thats why I calc'd at 8,000rpm to allow reasonable margin for reliability.

In other observations, if our measurements are accurate,
   EX flange ID cross-sectional area is 10% SMALLER than that of the EX port (15.2cm2 vs 17cm2), &
   IN port cross-sectional area (at liner) is 10% SMALLER than that of 36dia carb (9.2cm2 vs 10.2cm2)

Go figure what that does to sonic pressure waves in both, & gas flow!

Interestingly, without the boost-port,

   TR time-area is 0.000976 (ie upper end of the range)

Also interestingly, the 74GP cylinder has transfers about 10% narrower than the 73 barrell (tho boost port is marginally wider at the top).

On both barrells, with hi TR, they needed hi EX also to allow sufficient blowdown.

So you be the judge of what is required...

If yr thinking of enlarging the inlet, you can't go wider or you'll open into the TR cutaway on the side of the piston.

If you want to go lower, Jennings hypothesised that you need about 30deg diff between IN & TR timing for ease of kick-starting, so be careful.

For the record, std port opening timings are:
   EX  86deg ATDC
   TR  113deg ATDC
   IN    78deg BTDC

Offline midway200

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2008, 12:44:26 pm »
reading between the lines there are people that want their 250"s to be quicker. yes you could do all the afore mentioned things but i found timing and jetting to be important.........or you could try the barrel and head keith built for me along with the 326 in the early nineties. it uses a 250 magnum piston in a 73 radial barrel.  deck heights had to be altered so transfer ports lined up and head modified to get it back to same compression. you can see  4 little cutouts in the fins on the head that he used so he could spin it in the lathe.  this setup allowed me to turn the 326 into a 250 but the 326 was a better holeshot bike and i never got to rideit that often although i liked it , better than the less forgiving 400 i tried. performance wise from memory it was quick and had useable power. keith wasnt sure how it would go but i assurred him he got it right.  it has been taken out of the cupboard since accidently coming across the 326 article and is looking for a new home.email if interested............geoff

Offline T250K

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Re: The humble 250 Maico
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2008, 03:48:58 pm »
 G' day Geoff,    PM sent.    Cheers,     T250.