Author Topic: Trapezoidal or ACME  (Read 9800 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GMC

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3693
  • Broadford, Vic
    • View Profile
Trapezoidal or ACME
« on: February 24, 2015, 06:54:34 pm »
The usual weird long shot question but we have a lot of knowledge on here, so...
I have stripped the nut in the tailstock of my lathe (again)
I had it remade about 10 years back but it seems the guy that did it has closed up shop.
Trouble is I need a tap to make a new nut and I can't work out if it is Trapezoidal -14mm OD x 2.5 pitch or ACME - 9/16" x 10 TPI
Neither seems to come up as standard? Metric seems to be 14 x 3 and ACME seems to be either 1/2" OR 5/8"
Anyone know...
# how to tell for sure which one it is?
# Where I might buy a sleeve nut from?
# Who can make me a sleeve nut?
or #where I can buy a tap from?
oh yeah, it's left handed.

Thanks in advance
G.M.C.  Bringing the past into the future

Shock horror, its here at last...
www.geoffmorrisconcepts.com

For the latest in GMC news...
http://www.geoffmorrisconcepts.com/8/news/

Offline TTezza

  • B-Grade
  • ***
  • Posts: 281
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2015, 07:28:24 pm »
What type/brand of lathe. Got an idea that they used buttress threads on tailstocks

Offline Paul552

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 672
  • HEAVEN #552
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2015, 08:45:57 pm »
Mate grind hss tool and screw cut a new nut.
Even that small you will be able to do it.
'77 YZ125D '84 CR250RE '89 CR250RK '84 CR80RE  '09 YZ250F

Offline Momus

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 687
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2015, 10:12:18 pm »
You should be able to tell at least the pitch of the lead screw from the tailstock travel per rotation.

I went through the fun of trying to ID trapezoidal, Acme and buttress threads for an adjustable Watts link set up I was making.

It gets quite complicated with metric and SAE thread forms. I never successfully resolved the intricacies of thread standards and compatability.

I bought a tap supposedly a match for 12 x 3 trapezoidal threaded rod but despite trying various tapping bore sizes I could not get the clearance right, and went another way.

The nut likely has a bore of about 10 mm so hard to make a rigid steel cutter, or set,  but probably easier than trying to source a tap. Nut could again be case hardened 8620 or bronze.

The taps for this work are either very long (and weak) to keep the load per tooth down or sold in graduated sets of 2 or 3.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 10:19:21 pm by Momus »
If you love it, lube it.

Offline Lozza

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4206
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2015, 10:58:44 pm »
What about replacing the rod and nut with something readily available 10x3 and16x 4 seem to be used for home made  CNC and 3D printers. Isn't a trapezoid the metric version of ACME?

Various ACME taps are available on ebay even LH
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline sleepy

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2015, 11:14:35 pm »
This place in Brisbane offer quite a range of taps.

http://www.millerstooling.com.au/Mill-Tools-Taps-and-Threading.asp

As Momus said you should be able to work out the pitch from travel per rev.
They are not to difficult to make, you should be able to find a local machine shop that has at least 1 old school fitter and turner left who could do it for you.

Offline pmc57

  • A-Grade
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2015, 12:00:07 am »
Momus is correct re the travel of the tailstock per revolution. Although both 2.5mm pitch and 10 TPI are very similar. 2.5mm pitch = 2.5mm lead (distance per rev), 10 TPI = 0.100" lead (2.54mm per rev).
If you can't work it out by the graduations on the handwheel, put a dial indicator on the tailstock quill and measure travel per one rotation of the hand wheel.

Other differences between trapezoid and ACME threads is basically the included angles, 30 degrees for trapizoid and 29 degrees for ACME and some thread depth variations. ACME is considered an imperial thread while trapezoid is the "metric" equivalent.

TTezza is also on the right path with where the lathe is made, if it's an Asian made machine it's more likely built to metric specs so it would probably be a trapezoid thread. If it's an old UK or European ACME is likely. Measure the OD of the tail stock spindle thread (where it's not worn), assume it will be slightly smaller than nominal for clearance purposes and go from there. If it's 14mm nominal it would probably measure about 13.95mm, if it 9/16"(14.28mm) nominal it will likely be about 14.20mm.

Regardless of the above, making a nut of this size with an ACME or Trapizoid thread is difficult at best. I sell machine shop (lathe and mill) tooling for a living and when I have someone ask me for tooling for these types of threads  I ask these questions:
What thread form?
What thread pitch?
Thread root diameter?
Length of thread?
R or l/h thread?
material (steel, SS, cast iron or brass)?

Given it's left hand (nearly always special tooling required), has a root diameter of around 9-10mm (too small for most standard tooling with that pitch), most likely to have a thread length of about 20mm min (exceeds length /diameter ratio), I would recommend tapping as the easiest option for this type of thread given it's likely to be out of brass or bronze. It is possible to grind a small HSS tool and screw-cut it but unless you know what you're doing, you may not be successful.

You could get a special tap made by Capital Cutting Tools in Victoria Phone:(03) 5571 1772 or make you own if you're able to. To do this use a piece of 4140 round (high alloy steel) or similar and machine a L/H 14mm x 2.5 pitch OD thread, turn a taper for the lead-in and mill a few flutes along the length that give rake angles like a tap suitable for cutting brass / bronze. Because brass is easy to cut and it's a 1 off thread you may not even need to harden the tap, but if you do need to you can heat with an oxy to dull red and quench.

Alternatively if you can get hold of an old tail stock spindle, you could make a tap from it by doing what I described above.

The other obvious is, are OEM spare parts available?

Keep us informed on what you end up doing.   

 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 12:03:01 am by pmc57 »

Offline Lozza

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4206
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2015, 12:24:51 pm »
What would be the possibility of breaking a tap without a long lead in tap to remove 2.5mm of thread depth? Wouldn't grinding a form tool then cutting the thread in the lathe be better, remove the threaded rod and test to get the best fit?
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline GMC

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3693
  • Broadford, Vic
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2015, 01:22:21 pm »
Thanks guys.
Yes trapezoid is the metric version of ACME, problem is 2.5mm pitch is so close to 10TPI that its’ hard to tell the difference.
I do think it is Acme though,
I believe it is Asian built but has the brand name Mcmillan which I think was just one brand that was put onto this model
It won’t be the buttress as the thread is square edged both leading and trailing

Hard to measure the travel as the thread is so stuffed.

Also hard to make a tool as the nut is relatively small, it’s made of Brass and is about 20mm long, that means I will need a cutting tool around 25 mm long as the hole internally of the nut is around 10-11mm and the thread is around 2-2.5 deep that only leaves around 8mm dia shaft x 25 long to get the tip inside, not ideal machining which is why machine shops prefer a tap.

Machine shop which I went to are very good and had some taps but bigger than mine.
Moving to less teeth per inch means harder to push drill bits though jobs.
I can see the nut that I need in the US for around $30-40 which is ideal except they don’t list a 9/16”
only ½” or 5/8”

Looking for an option that will be cheaper than buying a new lathe as those taps can be quite expensive so best option I think is to find someone that already has one.
Last guy I used had the right tap, I hate it when guys retire :(

Have been given a lead that I will check out in a couple of days
G.M.C.  Bringing the past into the future

Shock horror, its here at last...
www.geoffmorrisconcepts.com

For the latest in GMC news...
http://www.geoffmorrisconcepts.com/8/news/

Offline sleepy

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2015, 04:27:32 pm »
I have a McMillan lathe about 35 years old and it has a 14 x4mm screw in the tail stock. Looks to me the hardest part would be getting the old nut out. To make a form tool to screw cut it would be a bit tricky but if I had to repair my one that is what I would do but then I have other lathes to use and I have been a fitter for 35 years.

Offline Tim754

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4011
  • Northern Country Victoria
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2015, 06:45:47 pm »
Try McMillan Tooling and Tanks Heavy Industries in Echuca, they may have sold the lathe like other things they do/did under license.
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
                                                   Voltaire.

Offline Rossvickicampbell

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3779
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2015, 08:18:55 pm »
I think Geoff is really asking for help to decide which side he bats for!
1974 Yamaha YZ360B
1980 Honda CR250R - Moto X Fox Replica

Offline Canam370

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1608
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2015, 08:46:27 pm »
Wile E Morris is at it again!


WANTED. Canams;all models,complete or parts.SWM stuff too!

I'm THE Thread Killer - when I post a thread dies!

Offline Mick D

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2915
    • View Profile
Re: Trapezoidal or ACME
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2015, 08:51:03 pm »
"light weight, and it works great"  :)