What flatslides are legal for Pre 85?

[supersenior 50]

Gold

[Nathan S]

Jebus Bigk.

The Pre-85 VMX class is fundamentally defined as being 1984 (and older) models.
What the hell is the point of having a "Pre-1985" class if we welcome major components that didn't exist in the day?

Like I said, we're not talking about blokes making mistakes through ignorance or making do.
Anyone who turns up with a Pre-85 bike with a PJ from now, is consciously breaking the rules in pursuit of a performance improvement.

No amount of red herrings will change that.

And let's no forget that a new Mikuni VM is under $200 delivered with ballpark jetting, and is 100% Pre-85 legal.

[GMC]

I propose the Ground Hog day rule.
For those that want it to be exactly like it was in the day with the introduction of the following years bikes being available late in the preceding year I say we allow 85 model bikes to ride in Pre84 and 90 model bikes to ride in Pre90, but only during the months of October to December.

Once it clicks over to January again you must revert back to your 84 / 89 model bike until the next October

[KTM47]

Lets apply the pundits rationale to not only bikes but the riders as well. We'll use EVO for this particular case:

Given that the last commercially available EVO bike able to be purchased in Australia was a 1984 Husqvarna CR500 (there may well be others, but this will suffice for the moment) & that you had to be 16 years old in 1984 to ride a senior race, I put it to you that the minimum age for someone to race the EVO class at national level in 2015 should be 47 years old. Age of bike plus 16 years. Some will say that's absurd, but no more absurd than the rule book racing that's happening on here.
This rule will put a lot of bikes on the side lines with those that don't comply to the proposed bike rules. There are quite a few who build bikes and then put an 18 year old gun to ride them at a National event just to get a $2 trophy.
So you ask why this rider age rule? Just like you don't like me riding an evo bike with something not quite EVO legal in your mind, I don't like you putting a super fast kid on a bike that said kid has no affiliation to other than to win a trophy for the bike builder.
Just a thought.
K

I agree BigK we should have age groups in the EVO class.

Oh I forgot we have got age groups!!!!!!!

The Championship is for the class of bike (not class of bike and rider).  If you want it changed send in a rule proposal for the next Annual Commission meeting.

Now lets get back to what was asked.

In my opinion the keihin flat slide carbies are not legal for Pre 85.  If keihin (through Show & Go etc) can show that they were available for sale to the public in 1984, and not just as a spare part for the 1985 model Honda.  Then maybe they could be considered (by MA) to be legal for Pre 85.

Also Eligibility Scrutineers are not self appointed and to my knowledge would not go walking around the pits.

Also please note the biggest problem seems to be that everyone thinks there is two sets of rules.

One for Championships and another for Club Days.

WRONG, WRONG WRONG!!!!!

[bigk]

My mistake, I was under the impression there were lots of eligibility "experts" on this forum.
K

[Nathan S]

My mistake, I was under the impression there were lots of eligibility "experts" on this forum.
K

I never realised that it required an 'expert' to understand that "Pre-85" means "before 1985".

[Graham]

Hands up all those who want to ban reproduction plastics produced after 95, or or how bout any bike with a replacement piston that's not standard   or or how bout any bike with non standard tyres. Hell this could go on forever

[KTM47]

My mistake, I was under the impression there were lots of eligibility "experts" on this forum.
K

There are a lot of  X Spurts on the forum.

[Momus]

In my opinion the keihin flat slide carbies are not legal for Pre 85.  If keihin (through Show & Go etc) can show that they were available for sale to the public in 1984, and not just as a spare part for the 1985 model Honda.  Then maybe they could be considered (by MA) to be legal for Pre 85.

The spare part Keihins flat slides for the 1985 250 were just as available through a Honda dealer as they would have been from a vendor who bought them wholesale to sell.
 
My information, and not all of it is presented here is that these readily available in 1984 carbs are identical to the RC500 items, apart from permissible differences in the sizes of calibrating parts.

When I bought my 84 CR500 last year I had been away from MX for a long time- I hadn't raced for 37 years- the bike had a flat slide on it which I assumed was the standard carb because  the others 500's I had looked at had the same.

 The thing that looked most out of whack were the fat handlebars and the cobby Pro Taper double adaptors

[Nathan S]

Hands up all those who want to ban reproduction plastics produced after 95, or or how bout any bike with a replacement piston that's not standard   or or how bout any bike with non standard tyres. Hell this could go on forever

This is another 'argument' designed to do nothing more than muddy a very clear point.

Pistons, tyres and plastics are consumable parts, and the supply of original parts is far too limited to demand them.
In the case of pistons and plastics, the replacement parts will usually meet the criteria of carry-over parts in any case.

None of this is relevant to carb swaps. There's still a decent supply of decent used PE carbs, and you can still buy VMs new.
The ONLY argument for fitting a later flat slide is performance.

------------

Marcus, I've already said that if you can prove that the production PJ is the same as the works 84 carbs, you stand a decent chance of having the production PJ allowed as a Pre-85 part.
But what you've presented here is highly unlikely to be enough to get a submission approved.

[Rossvickicampbell]

I can smell dumbgeon not far away 

[bigk]

This can go on forever. There's no 1st place trophy for the guy who knows the rule book back to front. Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one, me included. Common sense is what's needed in all VMX classes, not the rants of rule book zealots. Keep on with it & VMX will go the way of the dinosaur as no-one will be bothered. It has to be easier to comply & compete, not harder as some people seem to want.
K

[Nathan S]

This can go on forever. There's no 1st place trophy for the guy who knows the rule book back to front. Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one, me included. Common sense is what's needed in all VMX classes, not the rants of rule book zealots. Keep on with it & VMX will go the way of the dinosaur as no-one will be bothered. It has to be easier to comply & compete, not harder as some people seem to want.
K

I mostly agree. The flip side is "what's the point if we let everything in"?

If we were talking about Maico magnesium brake plates or RM370 rear hubs or any of the other unobtanium stuff, then I'm all for "let it be" - forcing people to use 100% stock stuff is bad for the sport.

But Keihin flatslides in Pre-85 is not about safety, or parts availability, or cost. It is about using non-period parts to enhance performance.
And that directly undermines the whole point of VMX.

[KTM47]

This can go on forever. There's no 1st place trophy for the guy who knows the rule book back to front. Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one, me included. Common sense is what's needed in all VMX classes, not the rants of rule book zealots. Keep on with it & VMX will go the way of the dinosaur as no-one will be bothered. It has to be easier to comply & compete, not harder as some people seem to want.
K

I thought there was a 1st place trophy for whoever gets the last post.

As I have said before the problem is riders have been let get away with parts/components that aren't correct and when someone buys a bike in good faith they sometimes get caught out.

Maybe some leeway is needed but how much and where do you stop is the difficult question.

The facts are the current rules (unlike the Historic Road Race rules) make no allowance for replacement or reproduction parts and they should.

I have already given my thoughts on the carby, so find the proof and submit it to MA.

[Momus]

The rules have to be interpreted with a flexibility that facilitates participation.
 I have to admit at being surprised at how small fields are at some meetings (CSC) and this is an observation, not a criticism of  hard working and dedicated club people.

I won't argue for rear disc brakes or watercooling on a 84 CR500 but an 80's carby on an 80's bike shouldn't have to cause an unfit, slow 56 year old the additional worry of wondering if he will be sent home in disgrace for an eligibility infraction.


I am very aware of the part that riding ability/age plays in race competitiveness compared to machine- it is about 90/10. A better carburetting bike for me is one that tractors from low rpm in a higher gear and for this the flat slide jigger is better than the round slide Keihin. It might add 1 or 2 percentage points to my chances; so 88/12 rider machine.

Who really knows or cares though when you are on the scramble track?