Author Topic: Frame Geometry Guru's.  (Read 3520 times)

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mx250

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Frame Geometry Guru's.
« on: June 26, 2008, 07:47:09 pm »
What's the effect of offsetting the forks forward in the triples - increase or decrease trail and stability.

(The red triples come from a H6 Montesa enduro, the silver from a VB360 - same frame, same leading axle forks.)




Maico31

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Re: Frame Geometry Guru's.
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2008, 07:55:48 pm »
The bigger offset will make it more stable and slower steering and increase the wheelbase. The trail will be less but not sure what effect that will have on handling.

Offline brent j

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Re: Frame Geometry Guru's.
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2008, 08:28:54 pm »
More offset will reduce trail,
This does the following,
understeer, the front slides first, sharper steering if the head angle is unaltered.
Less stable at speed.

Less offset will increase trail
Oversteer, the back tends to slide first, slower steering if the head angle is unaltered and more stability at speed.
The more trail the more the bike follows the front end.

I run less offset and a steep steering head angle. I get sharp steering from the steep head angle and stability from the longer trail

Check out Tony Foales website, there's a calculator for determining trail and a very interesting article where they ran a BMW750 with 15 and zero degree head angles but kept the same trail.

Brent
The older I get, the faster I was

Offline Lozza

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Re: Frame Geometry Guru's.
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2008, 08:33:02 pm »
Adding to above, will turn in better, more trail adds stability and less wheelbase makes handling sharper.Sort of have your cake and eat it to.It's a winner.
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline brent j

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Re: Frame Geometry Guru's.
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2008, 08:36:34 pm »
I treid to copy an 81 Maico as much as I could.
27.5 degree head angle
1500mm wheelbase
126mm trail
works for me!
The older I get, the faster I was

Maico31

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Re: Frame Geometry Guru's.
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2008, 08:41:58 pm »
Why is it that when you reduce the offset on a modern bike it turns easier and becomes less stable. That is what Honda did on the '08 CRF450 and they fitted a steering damper. It kind of goes against the increased trail rule doesn't it?

mx250

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Re: Frame Geometry Guru's.
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2008, 08:42:06 pm »
So the red ones will...

More offset will reduce trail,
This does the following,
understeer, the front slides first, sharper steering if the head angle is unaltered.
Less stable at speed.

The silver ones will.....

Less offset will increase trail
Oversteer, the back tends to slide first, slower steering if the head angle is unaltered and more stability at speed.
The more trail the more the bike follows the front end.


Offline brent j

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Re: Frame Geometry Guru's.
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2008, 09:42:21 pm »
I can't say much about the CRF450, I'm not that familiar with modern bikes or how they are changing but,
I do see a lot of newer bikes being fitted with steering dampers or they are recomended in tests.
I hear guys at race meetings talking about getting head shake on fast straights.
Newer bikes have very steep head angles and what seems to me (old timer) minimal trail.   It seems you can get away with minimal trail if you have great suspension. I also read of how you need to load the front of a new bike in corners to get them to turn.

When I started playing with my XT500 I ran Suzuki forks. The front end worked out to have 30 degrees rake and 130mm trail. This bike did not want to turn corners, you needed to find a berm and bounce it off to get it to turn. Incidently the rake and trail figues are the same as an HL500, I've never had the chance to ride one but I'm told they don't turn particularly well.
AND these numbers are, I understand, the same as an RH Suzuki which apparently turns like it on rails. Same rake and trail but all the other variables are different.

I steepened the head angle and this reduced the trail. It turned INTO corners better but still do not want to go around and was a little less stable.

I tried Yamaha triple clamps with 5mm less offset. Suddenly the back started to follow the front and it would turn. Next I tried Honda triples with a further 3mm  less offset and it was improved again. The improvement got better when I slid the forks up in the clamps to steepen it up more. With the longer trail this bike is VERY stable at speed.

The use of different offsets was trying to copy the Maico geometry. I've never known a Maico to need a steering damper.

There are so many things that will affect how a bick turns. My bike is close to an 81 Maico in geometry and the weight bias is about the same but it is heavier and has less power. It will flex differently and the different power and braking characteristics of the 4 stroke will make it totally different to what I copied.
One of the biggest improvements I made to cornering was fitting PD valves or emulators to the forks.

If you have the time MX250 why not try both set of triples? If you measure them and use the calculator on Tony Foales website you can work out what the trail will be.

Anyone who will be at Conondale or Proserpine is welcome to take my bike for a ride, I'd like some input form others.

Brent

The older I get, the faster I was

mx250

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Re: Frame Geometry Guru's.
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2008, 10:26:57 pm »
If you have the time MX250 why not try both set of triples? If you measure them and use the calculator on Tony Foales website you can work out what the trail will be.


I was thinking of doing just that ;) :), but I thought I would get something of a handle on things before I started out. In particular I was confirming the greater offset the less trail.

Calcul;ator downloaded  ;D.

Offline JC

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Re: Frame Geometry Guru's.
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2008, 04:13:21 pm »
Gents,

There's a few things at work here & some of them are contradictory, so its a little more involved/complex than most people realise.

If you reduce offset, (ie have more trail) you get more of the centre-ing effect which tends to make slightly heavier feel to the steering.  It should also cause less headshake.

It would give more stability too, except that you've also reduced the wheelbase which tends to reduce stability. Hence something of a contradictory effect. (Headshake is not the only issue in stability. There's also the tank-slapper effect, which is increased w shorter wheelbase)

But less offset also affects weight distribution, putting more weight on the front wheel, which tends to make the front wheel stick better in cornering. ie better steering. (This probably explains the issue w CRF450 steering mentioned in an earlier post. More weight on front wheel from less offset gives better steering, but the corresponding shorter wheelbase gives less stability).
 
It seems to me the change in weight distribution is the biggest factor/effect, & the one most often overlooked. Compare vintage Maicos. They were the best steering bike in MX, yet their rake & trail (overall offset) were exactly the same as many other VMXers. (I've measured many of them) The difference was the weight distribution. They had longish wheelbases, w motors & seating position well forward. So plenty of weight was on the front wheel giving very precise steering. When you sit on them it almost feels like the forks come out of yr hips! (Even a bikes ergonomics affects steering.)

Also compare Bultacos - the early ones washed out rather terribly, but the later ones (post Mk6 pursang) steered much better. The difference was in the triple clamps. The later ones had reduced offset & as far as I can tell, that was the only difference. This is particularly interesting since the later ones (Mk6-7) had considerably larger trail than any other bike of the era, but they steered fairly well cos they got the weight distribution/balance right & the front end stuck reasonably well. (Tho they could be even better w the tank & seat a little further forward, like an Ossa Phantom/Pioneer)

Now compare vintage Huskies. They ran very short wheelbases, with raked out front ends to get some stability, but they didn't steer too well (cos of the rake & consequent rear-ward weight distribution) & had the famous husky-hop (cos of short wheelbase). History shows those early Huskies didn't have the right combo, & it was a common mod to extend the swingarm/wheelbase & reduce the fork-offset to make them work better. That's effectively what the factory itself did. The 74 MAG Husky steered better than earlier Huskies cos of longer swingarm/wheelbase, & 75-76 USA works bikes ran reduced-offset triples as well as longer wheelbase.

Gary Flood further improved the steering of his Bultacos by adding 30mm to the swingarm (according to an early VMX mag). That's entirely consistent w what I'm saying. He would also have improved stability.

If you increase offset, you reduce the centre-ing effect, which makes slightly lighter feel to the steering (& can cause more headshake), but because yr moving the front wheel further forward it tends to cause front-end washout because of less weight on the front wheel. That can be offset by extending yr swingarm, even if only by chain adjusters (& another link or 2 in yr chain) because that restores some of yr weight distrbution/balance.

There is also the effect of raising/lowering yr forks in the triple clamps. On a typical VMXer of about 55" wheelbase, raising/lowering the forks 1" changes rake by about 1 degree. But what is most often overlooked is the larger effect on wheelbase & weight distribution/balance. Most people don't realise that a  1" change (sliding forks up or down) on a 30deg rake is a 0.5" change to yr wheelbase & weight distribution. ie Yr front wheel is either 0.5" closer to you or further away from you, depending on which way you slide the forks in the triples.

That is why, when people extend their forks w travel extenders (or simply longer forks or damping rods from a later model) using the same triple clamps they often find the bike now steers poorly w more front end washout. It can be corrected (or at least compensated for) to some degree by extending the swingarm, &/or reducing the offset w different triple clamps.

As you can see, there are many variables involved & many effects of changing the offset. Its not just different trail. But in general if yr front end washes out, bring the front wheel in closer to you &/or move the rear wheel further rearward. Even 5-6mm (or 0.25") makes a fair bit of difference.

As mentioned in an earlier post, the discussion in Foale & Willoughby is excellent. However most discussions on steering in 70's bike mags only concentrated on rake & trail in isolation which is of limited value - & frankly is often misleading. Hence bikes w the same rake & trail can steer entirely differently as Brent mentions above comparing the RH to the early version of his project bike.

Clear as mud?? It could be muddied further if you consider the effect of wheelbase on cornering. In general a shorter wheelbase is better for cornering. But cornering is different to steering in my view (tho there is of course some overlap). eg On Gary Floods Bultacos, they would have steered better (more weight on front wheel) but not cornered so well (longer wheelbase corners slower). Another contradictory effect.

Finally, getting back to MX250s original post, the H6 enduro came stock from the factory w straight forklegs, whereas the VB came w offset axle foklegs. The H6 legs were also shorter. That explains the diff offset in the triples. Some people just put offset axle forks in straight-forkleg triples if the fork dia was the same. Very bad move. It completely stuffs up the steering cos it stuffs up the weight distibution. It would also have a potentially bad effect on head-shake. Probably very bad!

I hope this has added further understanding to the discussion

Maico31

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Re: Frame Geometry Guru's.
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2008, 07:52:26 pm »
Thanks for that info kawboy, clears up a few things i wasn't sure about.