Not vmx, not KTM but Foxico !!!

[Davey Crocket]

You guys have short memories [and some of you are just too young to know]....when the land of the rising son [Tojo...look it up young fellas] came along there philosophy was totally different to the chinese....they copied other peoples products [I'm just talking about motorcicles and cars here but the rest would be similar]...they bought the rights off other companies...ie...Austin...bla, bla, made there products under licience [the chinese don't do this....they just blatantly steal/copy]...always improved it [something else the chinkas don't do...in fact they lower the std] and put it out there for a reasonable price [the only thing the chinese do, abeit at the cost of using slave labor and not adhearing to any modern safety concerns....worker gets injured =through him in the bin and get another]. the Japs where very cumming knowing that if you get a good product out there for a reasonable price, pay the workers [and look after them] fairly so they want to work for Mr Yamaha and make his product the best [something the chinese have no intentions of doing], you will be on a winner. The japs got into motor racing [hired the best...DeCoster/Robert/Peterson/Hallman etc....the list goes on].....and you know what.....they won [tell me what race teams the chinkas are funding?].....they made money, shared it around [ie...Yamaha USA, Kawasaki USA....The chinkas only have dodgy little 1 container at a time fly by nighters selling there product with little or NO after sales service]...the japs have put a lot back into a lot of countries [the chinese theory is once it leaves our factory we don't want to know about it]. Do you honestly think the chinese are going to start building factories in countries around the world like the japs do?...I don't think so but I guess if I am proven wrong then TMBill and John Orchard will be working for them [at 20cents and hour, no holidays, sickpay, 100 hours a week]. The way I see it, the Japanese came and did there thing in an honourable way, the chinese on the other hand are doing it just for money and don't care who they burn on the way through....you guys have short memories.

[John Orchard]

I agree there is a big difference between the Chinese and Japanese cultures, I do feel that the Japanese are much more honourable; or have to 'appear' to be, which I found when I use to work for Honda Japan.  I find Taiwan somewhere in the middle.

I guess the size (population) of China & India finds workers that will work a day for a bowl of rice, can't change that.  How many Japanese bikes are now being made in Taiwan, China and India, is that any better than you or I getting a bike made in China and importing it oursleves?

Times are changing, I guess life will be easier if we try and move with the times, sure the Chinese bikes are not quite up to the quality of the Japanese manufactured items, but for someone that can work on their own bike that's not such a worry.  If a part breaks, so what it's cheap to by another part.

German motorcycle manufacturer Sachs gets there freaky little 110cc Madass bike made in China, they sent engineers from Germany to China (I also went there as I was the Service Manager for the Australian importers) to make sure that the design & quality was up to their standards.

My Taiwanese Kymco quad is great, it never lets me down, Kymco is now making most parts for the Japanese quads.

Japanese manufacturers will have to buckle and get all their bikes & cars made in China, I wonder how many parts on the Foxico actually come out of the same mould that KTM parts come out of?  KTM would be getting components from China, hell the Italian company Benelli (which is now Chinese owned) gets many of its parts from China.

[TM BILL]

Joan there's nothing wrong with my memory but I am a realist . If we want to get on our high horse about honourable ways of doing things then both the Japs and the Krauts should still be paying reparation to the allied nations ( in the case of the Japs the Chinese who they really abused ) and particularly to the widows and kids of all the poor souls who suffered and died at the hands of these people . You might have heard of a place called Nanking .

But do we expect it  NO  WHY because as with knock off goods NOBODY CARES  Its not right but you are fighting a battle that you will never win . This and future generations are all about the NOW and what can I get for free. We were dyed in the wool motorcyclist the day we threw a leg over one until the day we tip over, for todays mob everything is a fad todays motorbikes tomorrow Hang gliding , Monday underwater Muff diving .

Joan they don't care where it comes from as long as its cheap enough to have fun and throw it away afterwards .

Short memory, I remember the late Enoch Powell's rivers of blood speech about immigration into the UK , the man was branded a racist and a lunatic , yet today the same generation of voters who at the time rubbished Powell are pensioners who are beside themselves trying to get by on shit pensions while immigrants are living it up .

 I wont at this present time buy a Chinese motorcycle , but I wont say I wont ever buy one.

As for 20c an hour and 100 hr weeks where do I sign sounds better than the current situation       

[firko]

Another point is that since Chairman Mao and Socialism has taken a dive for commercialism/capitalism we've seen a plethora of Chinese students entering western universities, many for engineering degrees. At the moment we're seeing the products of Mao educated engineers who learned their craft under the communist attitude of limited encouragement for original thought. The new modern generation Chinese engineer with a Western perspective for original and progressive design would be coming into the system pretty soon, if not about now. Slowly over the next few years we'll see a vast improvement in Chinese product design, quality and originality as they come to grips with what western society expects of them.

John, I love you like a son but you're heads up your arse if you believe that the Japanese did the honourable thing when they entered the world market. They might not have been as blatant at it as the Chinese but they stole a lot of early design ranging from the first Yamaha being a metric BSA Bantam and so on up the line. To say outright that they were oh so honourable by purchasing all of those early patents shows a blinkered naivety. In reality the Japs were ruthless in their stolen copy cat engineering, the big difference from the Chinese being that they very quickly moved on and developed their own self engineered products. The Chinese, as I said earlier didn't quite understand western standards because they were shut off from the real world during the Mao era so are a bit slower to absorb western principles and marketing style. The Japs on the other hand were educated on free market trade from American and British post WW2 occupation setting up their industry and instant markets. They were capitalists from the git go, ready to take over the world with trade where bullets and bombs  had failed a decade or so earlier.  Your attitude mirrors almost to the wording much of the attitude towards Japanese products in the 60's. My dad refused to buy a Japanese car because he'd fought them at war only 20 years earlier and he and his generation wouldn't believe that the Japs would ever make a decent product. The same attitude exists with blokes like you who are stuck with the current aspect of "chinka shit" and not accepting or understanding that what we're seeing it the pointy end of the Chinese motorcycle and car wedge.....just as the Datsun 1200, Bellett and little Japanese 80cc commuter bikes were the thin edge of the Japanese wedge. I'm not all that pleased with the Chinese situation but I'm looking at it as a realist. It's happening whether we like it or not so the sooner we get used to it and modify our attitudes, the easier the transition will be. 

[Tim754]

Quote from TMBill that sums it all up for me. Remember I facilitate (OK operate as there is no other employees..) a waste and recycle transfer station.  Meaning I see and smell all the shit people don't want anymore.
                                             """""WHY because as with knock off goods NOBODY CARES """""
                                                                                They only feel the price............

In an earlier thread I stated that the Chinese have vastly improved quality in the past five years, it will keep on improving at that fast rate too..... The computer you are using right now is primarily Chinese parts... regardless of where it was "assembled"

[Slakewell]

Two posatives from the China industries are Prices will come down they have to.
The Chinese quailty will go up untill like the Japs it may even be better.
Bring it on I say. 

[Davey Crocket]

You guys give up easy.....your big picture and my big picture are 2 different things....if you love them that much, why don't you go and live there and see if you survive.....you are obviously brain washed into thinking what they are doing is OK.....you know the old saying...if you lie down with dogs you'll get fleas....you blokes have fleas but wont admit it....I think it's sad.

[Tim754]

                                                                                                 They only feel the price............

[firko]

You guys give up easy.....your big picture and my big picture are 2 different things....if you love them that much, why don't you go and live there and see if you survive.....you are obviously brain washed into thinking what they are doing is OK.....you know the old saying...if you lie down with dogs you'll get fleas....you blokes have fleas but wont admit it....I think it's sad.

This is really upsetting you isn't it Joanie? You've really got a sniffle up your nose about those pesky Chinamen eh . God help them if they move in next door to you . None of that post has anything to do with what we're talking about. We westerners wouldn't survive too well in Japan either so leave that aspect out of it.  If you emerged from the mist for a little while and re-read what we're saying you'd see that none of us are advocating their products or "loving" them, we're just being realists and accepting that the world is changing and that the Chinese products are here whether we like it or not. You sound like my Dad when my Uncle Roy bought his Bellett back in 1964. The old man was livid. I've just learned to accept the inevitable before you, that's all.

[bigk]

I can't believe there's 3 pages on this.........
K

[Tim754]

Still I wont deny I  do get personal entertainment from the Cheapies , The engines you see on the bench excluding the SL125 at rear is what I have recovered and made operate since Christmas.... When tired of them I have a 30 SQ metre scrap metal recycle skip at work. Cheers Tim754


Disclaimer Important to note/ My workplace contract prohibits me from personally selling or advertising for sale anything recovered from my workplace. Any items you may have obtained from me are from stock collected prior to or purchased post my current employment.   OK Tim Derrick (Tim754)

BigK yep is a head scratcher.

[Ted]

How many of you chink lovers would stump up 600K and hand it to an entire Chinese crew to build a house for you? I'll guarantee not one of you would.

Quality is not a word they are accustomed to. They have no fuc...king idea and don't care. 

[Davey Crocket]

Argghhh, finally someone I can relate too.....don't worry Ted, Firko, TMBill and John Orchard will be racing chinkas soon......wont that be a hoot......Firko will be looking for "real" footpegs to put on his chinka when all his plasticine ones break off.

[Rossvickicampbell]

I am middle of the road - and suppose I will get "chopped" for that.  We buy lots from China here in Laos - and both lots of you guys are correct.  Some of the cars we see (BYD - Build Your Dream) - the Laos won't even touch but at the other end China makes some of the largest mills for ore processing in the world and well - we buy our mill balls from them and they are the BEST in the world by a long shot - but again - they had to be shown how to do it and that was reluctantly accepted.

[firko]

My footpegs come into this every time this come up . If that's the standard of your argument let me suggest some online debate lessons my friend. For the record, I don't have them on any of my bikes. I just liked winding you up and it seems to have worked. However, I do get frustrated when the point that others and myself make is totally bypassed to make a racist point. I also get annoyed when all of the Chinese products are thrown into the same shitbin without any obvious research on said parts. Some of the stuff, especially the billet alloy throttles are of market leading quality. I'll repeat the point I'm trying to make for the fifth flucking time.....I AGREE, MUCH OF THE CHINESE STUFF IS ABSOLUTE SHIT and nobody has said otherwise. What I'm (and the others) are saying and the point you keep missing is that their products are getting better at a pretty rapid rate and to flat dismiss the Chinese as making shit forever is making the very same mistake the Poms made when the Japs hit the market. Once the Chinese start making decent bikes and cars (and they most certainly will, based on common sense business practice) the whole motorcycle and car market will change. Whether it's for the better or worse we're yet to know but the Chinese philosphical and attitudinal differences to us or the Japanese has sweet fluckall to do with it. As I've said before, we all dismissed Hyundai's as shit back in 1984 but look at them now. You need to sit down with Jonesy who regularly travels to China and generates millions of dollars worth of business with the Chinese and see what he reckons about where they're headed. If you're capable of listening and understanding what he'd tell you you'd be pretty impressed.....and a little scared.

 You really need to ease off on the pain killers and chill out a little Joan. You scare me when you're on this anti "chinka" purge. On the eve of my 64th birthday  I'm too old to argue this stuff with equally stubborn opposition, Nathan taught me that. I'm off on an adventure to then Troy Bayliss Classic so fluck it all.