Author Topic: Welding fuel tanks  (Read 5847 times)

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Offline Graeme M

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Welding fuel tanks
« on: June 04, 2008, 03:35:11 pm »
I cracked the rear mounting tab on the RM125M's fuel tank at CD5 and need to get it repaired. What's the word on having a tank welded? Just drain it out and let it dry completely? Wash it out to reduce any hazard from fumes?

Offline DJRacing

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2008, 05:54:51 pm »
That all I did to the Noguchi tank Graeme, and it needed 2 mounting lugs moved and a seam welded up.
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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2008, 06:33:14 pm »
Wash the tank out with a high ratio solution of CT18 and water two or three times and let it dry thoroughly in the sun. Have a sniff in the fuel hole and you should only be able to smell CT18. At the slightest hint of fuel odour, repeat the washing out/drying process until all you can smell is detergent. Below is a more detailed process taken from a US millitary welding guide.

PREPARING THE CONTAINER FOR CLEANING

CAUTION

Do not use chlorinated hydrocarbons, such as trichloroethylene or carbon tetrachloride, when cleaning. These materials may be decomposed by heat or radiation from welding or cutting to form phosgene. Aluminum and aluminum alloys should not be cleaned with caustic soda or cleaners having a pH above 10, as they may react chemically. Other nonferrous metals and alloys should be tested for reactivity prior to cleaning.

NOTE

No container should be considered clean or safe until proven so by tests. Cleaning the container is necessary in all cases before welding or cutting.
a. Disconnect or remove from the vicinity of the container all sources of ignition before starting cleaning.

b. Personnel cleaning the container must be protected against harmful exposure. Cleaning should be done by personnel familiar with the characteristics of the contents.

c. If practical, move the container into the open. When indoors, make sure the room is well ventilated so that flammable vapors may be carried away.

d. Empty and drain the container thoroughly, including all internal piping, traps, and standpipes. Removal of scale and sediment may be facilitated by scraping, hammering with a nonferrous mallet, or using a nonferrous chain as a srubber. Do not use any tools which may spark and cause flammable vapors to ignite. Dispose of the residue before starting to weld or cut.

e. Identify the material for which the container was used and determine its flammability and toxicity characteristics. If the substance previously held by the container is not known, assure that the substance is flammable, toxic, and insoluble in water.

f. Cleaning a container that has held combustibles is necessary in all cases before any welding or cutting is done. This cleaning may be supplemental by filling the container with water or an inert gas both before and during such work.

g. Treat each compartment in a container in the same manner, regardless of which comparment is be welded or cut.


2-22. METHODS OF PRECLEANING CONTAINERS WHICH HAVE HELD FLAMMABLE LIQUIDS
a. General. It is very important for the safety of personnel to completely clean all tanks and containers which have held volatile or flammable liquids. Safety precautions cannot be over-emphasized because of the dangers involved when these items are not thoroughly purged prior to the application of heat, especially open flame.

b. Accepted Methods of Cleaning. Various methods of cleaning containers which have held flammable liquids are listed in this section. However, the automotive exhaust and steam cleaning methods are considered by military personnel to be the safest and easiest methods of purging these containers.


2-23. AUTOMOTIVE EXHAUST METHOD OF CLEANING

WARNING

Head and eye protection, rubber gloves, boots, and aprons must be worn when handling steam, hot water, and caustic solutions. When handling dry caustic soda or soda ash, wear approved respiratory protective equipment, long sleeves, and gloves. Fire resistant hand pads or gloves must be worn when handling hot drums.
The automotive exhaust method of cleaning should be conducted only in well-ventilated areas to ensure levels of toxic exhaust gases are kept below hazardous levels.


CAUTION

Aluminum and aluminum alloys should not be cleaned with caustic soda or cleaners having a pH above 10, as they may react chemically. Other nonferrous metals and alloys should be investigated for reactivity prior to cleaning.
a. Completely drain the container of all fluid.

b. Fill the container at least 25 percent full with a solution of hot soda or detergent (1 lb per gal of water (0.12 kg per 1)) and rinse it sufficiently to ensure that the inside surface is thoroughly finished.

c. Drain the solution and rinse the container again with clean water.

d. Open all inlets and outlets of the container.

e. Using a flexible tube or hose, direct a stream of exhaust gases into the container. Make sure there are sufficient openings to allow the gases to flow through the container.

f. Allow the gases to circulate through the container for 30 minutes.

g. Disconnect the tube from the container and use compressed air (minimum of 50 psi (345 kPa)) to blow out all gases.

h. Close the container openings. After 15 minutes, reopen the container and test with a combustible gas indicator. If the vapor concentration is in excess of 14 percent of the lower limit of flammability, repeat cleaning procedure.


2-24. STEAM METHOD OF CLEANING

WARNING

Head and eye protection, rubber gloves, boots, and aprons must be worn when handling steam, hot water, and caustic solutions. When handling dry caustic soda or soda ash, wear approved respiratory protective equipment, long sleeves, and gloves. Fire resistant hand pads or gloves must be worn when handling hot drums.
The automotive exhaust method of cleaning should be conducted only in well-ventilated areas to ensure levels of toxic exhaust gases are kept below hazardous levels.


CAUTION

Aluminum and aluminum alloys should not be cleaned with caustic soda or cleaners having a pH above 10, as they may react chemically. Other nonferrous metals, and alloys should be investigated for reactivity prior to cleaning.
a. Completely drain the container of all fluid.

b. Fill the container at least 25 percent full with a solution of hot soda, detergent, or soda ash (1 lb per gal of water (0.12 kg per 1)) and agitate it sufficiently to ensure that the inside surfaces are thoroughly flushed.


NOTE

Do not use soda ash solution on aluminum.
c. Drain the solution thoroughly.

d. Close all openings in the container except the drain and filling connection or vent. Use damp wood flour or similar material for sealing cracks or other damaged sections.

e. Use steam under low pressure and a hose of at least 3/4-in. (19.05 mm) diameter. Control the steam pressure by a valve ahead of the hose. If a metal nozzle is used at the outlet end, it should be made of nonsparkinq material and should be electrically connected to the container. The container, in turn, should be grounded to prevent an accumulation of static electricity.

f. The procedure for the steam method of cleaning is as follows:

(1) Blow steam into the container, preferably through the drain, for a period of time to be governed by the condition or nature of the flammable substance previously held by the container. When a container has only one opening, position it so the condensate will drain from the same opening the steam inserted into. (When steam or hot water is used to clean a container, wear suitable clothing, such as boots, hood, etc., to protect against burns.)

(2) Continue steaming until the container is free from odor and the metal parts are hot enough to permit steam vapors to flow freely out of the container vent or similar opening. Do not set a definite time limit for steaming containers since rain, extreme cold, or other weather conditions may condense the steam as fast as it is introduced. It may take several hours to heat the container to such a temperature that steam will flow freely from the outlet of the container.

(3) Thoroughly flush the inside of the container with hot, preferably boiling, water.

(4) Drain the container.

(5) Inspect the inside of the container to see if it is clean. To do this, use a mirror to reflect light into the container. If inspection shows that it is not clean, repeat steps (1) through (4) above and inspect again. (Use a nonmetal electric lantern or flashlight which is suitable for inspection of locations where flammable vapors are present.)

(6) Close the container openings. In 15 minutes, reopen the container and test with a combustible gas indicator. If the vapor concentration is in excess of 14 percent of the lower limit of flammbility, repeat the cleaning procedure.


2-25. WATER METHOD OF CLEANING
a. Water-soluble substances can be removed by repeatedlv filling and draining the container with water. Water-soluble acids, acetone, and alcohol can be removed in this manner. Diluted acid frequently reacts with metal to produce hydrogen; care must be taken to ensure that all traces of the acid are removed.

b. When the original container substance is not readily water-soluble, it must be treated by the steam method or hot chemical solution method.


2-26. HOT CHEMICAL SOLUTION METHOD OF OF CLEANING

WARNING

Wear head and eye protection, rubber gloves, boots, and aprons when handling steam, hot water, and caustic solutions. When handling dry caustic soda or soda ash, wear approved respiratory protective equipment, long sleeves, and gloves. Wear fire resistant hand pads or gloves to handle hot drums.

CAUTION

Aluminum and aluminum alloys should not be cleaned with caustic soda or cleaners having a pH above 10, as they may react chemically. Other nonferrous metals and alloys should be investigated for reactivity prior to cleaning.
a. The chemicals generally used in this method are trisodium phosphate (strong washing powder) or a commercial caustic cleaning compound dissolved in water to a concentration of 2 to 4 oz (57 to 113 g) of chemical per gallon of water.

b. The procedure for the hot chemical solution method of cleaning is as follows:

(1) Close all container openings except the drain and filling connection or vent. Use damp wood flour or similar material for sealing cracks or other damaged sections.

(2) Fill the container to overflowing with water, preferably letting the water in through the drains. If there is no drain, flush the container by inserting the hose through the filling connection or vent. Lead the hose to the bottom of the container to get agitation from the bottom upward. This causes any remaining liquid, scum, or sludge to be carried upward and out of the container.

(3) Drain the container thoroughly.

(4) Completely dissolve the amount of chemical required in a small amount of hot or boiling water and pour this solution into the container. Then fill the container with water.

(5) Make a steam connection to the container either through the drain connection or by a pipe entering through the filling connection or vent. Lead the steam to the bottom of the container. Admit steam into the chemical solution and maintain the solution at a temperature of 170 to 180°F (77 to 82°C). At intervals during the steaming, add enough water to permit overflying of any volatile liquid, scum, or sludge that may have collected at the top. Continue steaming to the point where no appreciable amount of volatile liquid, scum, or sludge appears at the top of the container.

(6) Drain the container.

(7) Inspect the inside of the container as described in paragraph 2-24 f (5). If it is not clean, repeat steps (4) thru (6) above and inspect again.

(8) Close the container openings. In 15 minutes, test the gas concentration in the container as described in paragraph 2-24 f (6).

c. If steaming facilities for heating the chemical solution are not available, a less effective method is the use of a cold water solution with the amount of cleaning compound increased to about 6 oz (170 g) per gal of water. It will help if the solution is agitated by rolling the container or by blowing air through the solution by means of an air line inserted near the bottom of the container.

d. Another method used to clean the container is to fill it 25 percent full with cleaning solution and clean thoroughly, then introduce low pressure steam into the container, allowing it to vent through openings. Continue to flow steam through the container for several hours.


2-27. MARKING OF SAFE CONTAINERS
After cleaning and testing to ensure that a container is safe for welding and cutting, stencil or tag it. The stencil or tag must include a phrase, such as “safe for welding and cutting,” the signature of the person so certifying, and the date.


2-28. FILLING TREATMENT
It is desirable to fill the container with water during welding or cutting as a supplement to any of the cleaning methods (see fig. 2-8). Where this added precaution is taken, place the container so that it can be kept find to within a few inches of the point where the work is to be done. Make sure the space above the water level is vented so the heated air can escape from the container.




2-29. PREPARING THE CLEAN CONTAINER FOR WELDING OR CUTTING--INERT GAS TREATMENT
a. General. Inert gas may be used as a supplement to any of the cleaning methods and as an alternative to the water filling treatment. If sufficient inert gas is mixed with flammable gases and vapors, the mixture will come non-flammable. A continuous flow of steam may also be used. The steam will reduce the air concentration and make the air flammable gas mixture too lean to burn. Permissible inert gases include carbon dioxide and nitrogen.

b. Carbon Dioxide and Nitrogen.

(1) When carbon dioxide is used, a minimum concentration of 50 percent is required, except when the falmmable vapor is principally hydrogen, carbon monoxide, or acetylene. In these cases, a minimum concentration of 80 percent carbon dioxide is required. Carbon dioxide is heavier than air, and during welding or cutting operations will tend to remain in containers having a top opening.

(2) When nitrogen is used, the concentrations should be at least 10 percent greater than those specified for carbon dioxide.

(3) Do not use carbon monoxide.

c. Procedure. The procedure for inert gas, carbon dioxide, or nitrogen treatment is as follows:

(1) Close all openings in the container except the filling connection and vent. Use damp wood flour or similar material for sealing cracks or other damaged sections.

(2) Position the container so that the spot to be welded or cut is on top. Then fill it with as much water as possible.

(3) Calculate the volume of the space above the water level and add enough inert gas to meet the minimum concentration for nonflammability. This will usually require a greater volume of gas than the calculated minimum, since the inert gas may tend to flow out of the vent after displacing only part of the previously contained gases or vapors.

(4) Introduce the inert gas, carbon dioxide, or nitrogen from the cylinder through the container drain at about 5 psi (34.5 kPa). If the drain connection cannot be used, introduce the inert gas through the filling opening or vent. Extend the hose to the bottom of the container or to the water level so that the flammable gases are forced out of the container.

(5) If using solid carbon dioxide, crush and distribute it evenly over the greatest possible area to obtain a rapid formation of gas.

d. Precautions When Using Carbon Dioxide. Avoid bodily contact with solid carbon dioxide, which may produce “burns”. Avoid breathing large amounts of carbon dioxide since it may act as a respiratory stimulant, and, in sufficient quantities, can act as an asphyxiant.

e. Inert Gas Concentration. Determine whether enough inert gas is present using a combustible gas indicator instrument. The inert gas concentration must be maintained during the entire welding or cutting operation. Take steps to maintain a high inert gas concentration during the entire welding or cutting operation by one of the following methods:

(1) If gas is supplied from cylinders, continue to pass the gas into the container.

(2) If carbon dioxide is used in solid form, add small amounts of crushed solid carbon dioxide at intervals to generate more carbon dioxide gas.


Section VI. SAFETY PRECAUTIONS FOR WELDING AND CUTTING POLYURETHANE FOAM FILLED ASSEMBLIES

2-30. HAZARDS OF WELDING POLYURETHANE FOAM FILLED ASSEMBLIES

WARNING

Welding polyurethane foam-filled parts can produce toxic gases. Welding should not be attempted on parts filled with polyurethane foam. If repair by welding is necessary, the foam must be removed from the heat-affected area, including the residue, prior to welding.
a. General. Welding polyurethane foam filled parts is a hazardous procedure. The hazard to the worker is due to the toxic gases generated by the thermal breakdown of the polyurethane foam. The gases that evolve from the burning foam depend on the amount of oxygen available. Combustion products of polyurethane foam in a clean, hot fire with adequate oxygen available are carbon dioxide, water vapor, and varying amounts of nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, and traces of hydrogen cyanide. Thermal decomposition of polyurethanes associated with restricted amounts of oxygen as in the case of many welding operations results in different gases being produced. There are increased amounts of carbon monoxide, various aldehydes, isocyanates and cyanides, and small amounts of phosgene, all of which have varying degrees of toxicity.

b. Safety Precautions.

(1) It is strongly recommended that welding on polyurethane foam filled parts not be performed. If repair is necessary, the foam must be removed from the heataffected zone. In addition, all residue must be cleaned from the metal prior to welding.


 

Offline Wombat

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2008, 06:48:12 pm »
Good Lord!! The Military - never short on detail are they?
From welding tanks to polishing boots and how to 'stand at ease', that's the sort of speil ya get!
"Whadaya mean it's too loud?! It's a f*ckin' race bike!! That pipe makes it go louder - and look faster!!"

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2008, 08:50:18 pm »
all we do is drain the tank, leave the cap off it and sit it outside in the sun for a couple days. once you cant really smell strong fumes anymore, it will be alright to hit it with a angle grinder to cut the base open to knock out dents and weld or do what ever you like with it.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 08:51:59 pm by LWC3077 »
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Offline holeshot buddy

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2008, 10:04:47 pm »
jeez firko :o
like it says clean out stick it on exhaust of running car
for a while  carbon monoxide should kill the fumes
then drop match in to see if it works ::) (only kidding) ;D
follow me to first turn

Offline Lozza

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2008, 10:45:41 pm »
Can't emphasise enough that this isn't a "she'll be" kind of job.Since moving to Newcastle there has been about 5 deaths of people welding tanks that contained flammable liquids.The last fellow was the very cautious type to.A shipbuilder told me if I was in any doubt, attatch a leather hood to the rear of your welding helmet and a wear leather coat. You won't know until it's to late.
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline matcho mick

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2008, 11:17:52 pm »
i'm with lozza,can't be too carefull,purging with exhaust from car with engine running whilst weldings the go,(vacuum cleaner hose works for me),or fill tank up with water,tricky keeping the heat up but?,as for leaving it in the sun for a couple daze,pharrrk
work,the curse of the racing class!!
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Offline Nathan S

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2008, 11:41:03 pm »
I'm yet to see or hear of the 'full of water' trick working. In my experience, all it does is creates a crack that you'll chase forever.

But it might be OK if the weld is only on a mounting tab, and away from the liquid holding part of the tank (in which case, you probably don't have to be overly paranoid about the tank going boom anyhow).
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline vandy010

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 02:59:32 am »
always best left to the specialists.
if being welded by mig or tig, run a "Y" piece off the inert gas bottle and stick a hose inside the feul tank whilst welding. this will charge the tank with a non-combustible inert gas and will also provide a premium environment for weld penetration.
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Offline Tim754

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2008, 10:55:47 pm »
And do not attempt to remove with an a grinder or such unwanted parts before "making safe as above"         SES extraction of parts of dills that have tried to cut open 205Lt drums even with a chisel and hammer are not nice. >:(
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 04:55:08 pm by Tim754 »
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Berg400

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2009, 12:10:27 am »
Clean the tank as much as you can, make sure you give it a good flush. Then get argon or another inert gas and purge the tank for about 10-15mins before welding, then leave the hose with argon running through in the tank and flowing at about 7-10 lpm while welding

Offline Lozza

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2009, 12:30:41 am »
or you can do it the the simple easy and cheap way.Which happens to be the best(read safest) method yet.

PACK TO BRIM WITH DRY ICE. Dry ice is frozen CO2 so no flamable gas can find O2 to mix or burn with and keeps tank cool also.
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Offline LWC82PE

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2009, 12:32:11 am »
ok you gotta be cautious but all i do i drain the tank and leave in the sun for a couple days and thats fine, but usually the tanks i get to restore are really old and havent had fuel in them for years anyway.

Is everyone in that much of a rush to repair their tanks that they dont have time just to leave the tank to air out in the sun for a couple days? that is all a motorcycle tank needs.

i understand if its something like a customers car fuel tank that needs to be done asap to get them back on the road you dont have time to leave it in the sun for a few days but on a VMX bike?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 10:10:06 pm by LWC3077 »
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Offline Maicojames

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Re: Welding fuel tanks
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2009, 05:00:00 pm »
Thanks, I am actually having to cut and repair a tank now. BTW the dry ice ding removal is a hoax-after being frustrated on the alloy tank, I took the dry ice to dings on my pickup-after a few days-they are actually deeper.

So, my plan is to wash out thoruoghly, let dry, blow out w. air, then take to welder to purge with argon, prior to cutting for dent repair. Does this sound reasonable?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 03:28:37 am by Maicojames »
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