Author Topic: Couple of other MOMS please explains  (Read 9320 times)

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Offline 09.0

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2013, 12:41:56 pm »
Quote
1) That was my reading of it as well. Why is a billet ignition cover for example bling when it could give a performance advantage in muddy conditions as it seals better or billet component being stronger than a cast item. Most 'bling' items have their appeal based on the perception of improved performance.
  I must say that this is a stretch at best to suit your argument about billet parts having an advantage. The billet parts on my Maico are purely cosmetic. So many times so many people have had a bitch about the 'OEM' tag yet it's still there. So as it gets said every time this and other similar threads start up about baddy worded rules or incorrect ones for e.g. rm 'b' alloy arms. If you have an issue with it, go through the proper channels and get it changed.

Offline evo550

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2013, 12:51:51 pm »
1) reading that rule in conjunction with acceptable machines and components rule, I would interpret that no "bling" manufactured after the cut off date is allowed.

2) There is for pre 60 and 65 "frames of any manufacture are acceptable within the suspension critera and considerate of the era."

1) That was my reading of it as well. Why is a billet ignition cover for example bling when it could give a performance advantage in muddy conditions as it seals better or billet component being stronger than a cast item. Most 'bling' items have their appeal based on the perception of improved performance.

2) The rule 18.5.1.1 & 15.5.2.1 about the "frame of any manufacture" states machines and components manufactured before 1960 or 65. There should be a general rule in the Classic MX and DT setting the guidelines for replicas and I am sure that there was at one time otherwise how can a frame built in 2013 be acceptable. I am not saying they shouldn't be accepted but the rules don't seem to allow them as they presently stand. Considerate of the ERA is also very wide open and lose allowing almost any interpretation.

The current rules except for the EVO section specifically state when the machine and major components must be manufactured. Am I missing something? I know people can say the intent is this or that but sometimes the rule is literal this seems to be one of them. Otherwise why have any rules at all. The issue of replicas needs to be covered.


1) I would assume later era or aftermarket components are outlawed because they DO give an advantage, which could potentially alter the outcome of results. The example of a billet ignition cover in muddy conditions is one of those.

2) Lots of laws are open to interpretation, it's up to the defendant (bike owner) to convince the judge (steward) there interpretation is right. Your not missing anything it's there in black and white, it's just that no one protests against the rule breach, so there in.
Possible addition
18.5.9 Replicas and reproductions of machines or major components are allowable in all eras. The replicas or reproductions but must be true to the original in all significant details such as geometry (in the case of frames and swing arms), fit and function. They must satisfy all requirements of the applicable era rules with the exception of manufacture date. The replicas and reproductions must be visually comparable to the original when in use. Manufacturing techniques and materials may vary from the original components.

Define "Major" components.
 It contradicts itself a bit when it states "must be true to the original in all significant details" and "must be visually comparable to the original", but "materials may vary from original components." So I can build a replica swingarm for a flexy pre 75 bike that looks the same, but is made out of carbon  fibre/aluminium composite and still be ok?
See how rule can be intrepreted differently?

Offline GD66

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2013, 01:01:31 pm »
 So as it gets said every time this and other similar threads start up about baddy worded rules or incorrect ones for e.g. rm 'b' alloy arms. If you have an issue with it, go through the proper channels and get it changed.




Good point, Brad.

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Offline JohnnyO

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2013, 01:08:08 pm »
I would interpret it as a part that is not of the period e.g. later model which enhances the performance. Bling doesn't do that so...

 ???
So we're accepting obviously out-of-period stuff, while not accepting bits that were made a year or two after the cut-off?

How is a CNC'd, anodised ignition cover on a YZ125A OK, if a stock cover off a YZ125C or X not?
In 1974 it was possible to machine a billet ignition cover for a YZ125a, it wasn't possible to fit a YZc ignition cover.. It's not rocket science

Montynut

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2013, 01:14:27 pm »
Quote
1) That was my reading of it as well. Why is a billet ignition cover for example bling when it could give a performance advantage in muddy conditions as it seals better or billet component being stronger than a cast item. Most 'bling' items have their appeal based on the perception of improved performance.
  I must say that this is a stretch at best to suit your argument about billet parts having an advantage. The billet parts on my Maico are purely cosmetic. So many times so many people have had a bitch about the 'OEM' tag yet it's still there. So as it gets said every time this and other similar threads start up about baddy worded rules or incorrect ones for e.g. rm 'b' alloy arms. If you have an issue with it, go through the proper channels and get it changed.
Brad I am not sure what you think is my objective I have no problems with your bikes OK
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 01:16:57 pm by Montynut »

TM BILL

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2013, 01:15:33 pm »
I never thought of it like that  ::) but yep spot on John  :)

oldfart

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2013, 01:25:42 pm »
Possible addition
18.5.9 Replicas and reproductions of machines or major components are allowable in all eras. The replicas or reproductions but must be true to the original in all significant details such as geometry (in the case of frames and swing arms), fit and function. They must satisfy all requirements of the applicable era rules with the exception of manufacture date. The replicas and reproductions must an exact copy with no variants.


Offline Ted

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2013, 01:48:19 pm »
Now that my alloy B arm is polished I will call it a cosmeticly enhanced billet B arm offering no performance gains...how can they refuse that ;)
81 YZ 465 H   77 RM 125 B

Offline GMC

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2013, 01:51:01 pm »
I sometimes think you guys have got too much time on your hands if your studying the rule book, but it does seem that every year we find a new set of hurdles.

2) The rule 18.5.1.1 & 15.5.2.1 about the "frame of any manufacture" states machines and components manufactured before 1960 or 65. There should be a general rule in the Classic MX and DT setting the guidelines for replicas and I am sure that there was at one time otherwise how can a frame built in 2013 be acceptable. I am not saying they shouldn't be accepted but the rules don't seem to allow them as they presently stand. Considerate of the ERA is also very wide open and lose allowing almost any interpretation.


The rule book states for both pre 60 & pre 65..
“Frames of any manufacture are acceptable within the suspension criteria and considerate of the era.”

This is a new rule, brought in I thought last year.
It sounds a bit loose but I believe its intention is to allow ‘copies’ of home made frames and the like that would have been around in the day but there is no real proof that they existed.
“considerate of the era.” Means you can’t make your frame look like a 74 Maico but if it looks like a Greeves, BSA, (or cheap Chinese Metisse!!) etc then you should be okay.
I believe this is a positive move to encourage bikes into these early classes.



2) There no longer seems to be an allowance in the MOMS for replicas major components such as frames in any of the ERAs. Have I missed it? When did it disappear?

Damned if I know, my 09 book states…
18.6.0.2
All major components must have been manufactured within the period, or be replicas of components manufactured within the period,


Define "Major" components.
 It contradicts itself a bit when it states "must be true to the original in all significant details" and "must be visually comparable to the original", but "materials may vary from original components." So I can build a replica swingarm for a flexy pre 75 bike that looks the same, but is made out of carbon  fibre/aluminium composite and still be ok?
See how rule can be intrepreted differently?


A composite swingarm?
If someone can make one look the same as a standard arm then I say go for it.

I have built Cro-Mo swingarms that look the same as originals that have won Aussie titles, because they look the same no one has cared / noticed.


The classic Road race section has this, I reckon we should have something similar…

16.4.0.7 Major components are:
a) All engine and gearbox external castings,
b) Frames,
c) Swingarms,
d) Brakes,
e) Forks and fork yokes.
16.4.0.8 All other components shall be considered as minor components.
16.4.0.9 Major components that were manufactured outside a specific period, but which are visually indistinguishable from period components shall be eligible for that period.
16.4.0.10 Modifications to major components are allowed, providing such modifications are visually indistinguishable from modifications proven to have been used in the period.


16.4.0.12 Minor components may be modified or updated, provided that they remain visually compatible with the period being depicted.
16.4.0.7 Major components are:
a) All engine and gearbox external castings,
b) Frames,
c) Swingarms,
d) Brakes,
e) Forks and fork yokes.
16.4.0.8 All other components shall be considered as minor components.
16.4.0.9 Major components that were manufactured outside a specific period, but which are visually indistinguishable from period components shall be eligible for that period.
16.4.0.10 Modifications to major components are allowed, providing such modifications are visually indistinguishable from modifications proven to have been used in the period.

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Offline Bamford#69

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2013, 02:09:41 pm »
 Hi,
Can everyone  get hold of a 2013 edition of the GCRs or Manual of Motorcycle Sports (MOMs)and have a good read , stop using rules from your  2009 rule book , the rules are being updated and improved continually,
cheers 

Offline evo550

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2013, 03:14:40 pm »
I would interpret it as a part that is not of the period e.g. later model which enhances the performance. Bling doesn't do that so...

 ???
So we're accepting obviously out-of-period stuff, while not accepting bits that were made a year or two after the cut-off?

How is a CNC'd, anodised ignition cover on a YZ125A OK, if a stock cover off a YZ125C or X not?
In 1974 it was possible to machine a billet ignition cover for a YZ125a, it wasn't possible to fit a YZc ignition cover.. It's not rocket science
Theoretically, it was possible to build upside down forks in 1974........does that mean they would be acceptable?
unrealstic example I know, but thats how the current rule book is worded.

Offline 09.0

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2013, 03:24:33 pm »
Quote
1) That was my reading of it as well. Why is a billet ignition cover for example bling when it could give a performance advantage in muddy conditions as it seals better or billet component being stronger than a cast item. Most 'bling' items have their appeal based on the perception of improved performance.
  I must say that this is a stretch at best to suit your argument about billet parts having an advantage. The billet parts on my Maico are purely cosmetic. So many times so many people have had a bitch about the 'OEM' tag yet it's still there. So as it gets said every time this and other similar threads start up about baddy worded rules or incorrect ones for e.g. rm 'b' alloy arms. If you have an issue with it, go through the proper channels and get it changed.
Brad I am not sure what you think is my objective I have no problems with your bikes OK
I'm not thinking it's a personal attack if that's what you mean. I was merely using my bike as an example. I'm actually worried you think I'm chasing you around the forum which isn't so.

Quote
Theoretically, it was possible to build upside down forks in 1974........does that mean they would be acceptable?
unrealstic example I know, but thats how the current rule book is worded.
That makes no sense at all. It was possible to build a 2013 crf450 too.

Offline evo550

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2013, 04:17:37 pm »



Quote
Theoretically, it was possible to build upside down forks in 1974........does that mean they would be acceptable?
unrealstic example I know, but thats how the current rule book is worded.
That makes no sense at all. It was possible to build a 2013 crf450 too.
[/quote]
I know it's a ridiculous example, but Johnny O made the comment that a billet ignition cover made in 2013 is legal because it could be manufactured in 1974, my point was that you can't discriminate between components anymore, and that a set of upsidedown forks would be legal also using his theory, because they to could have been built in 1974...theoretically.

Offline JohnnyO

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2013, 04:35:12 pm »



Quote
Theoretically, it was possible to build upside down forks in 1974........does that mean they would be acceptable?
unrealstic example I know, but thats how the current rule book is worded.
That makes no sense at all. It was possible to build a 2013 crf450 too.
I know it's a ridiculous example, but Johnny O made the comment that a billet ignition cover made in 2013 is legal because it could be manufactured in 1974, my point was that you can't discriminate between components anymore, and that a set of upsidedown forks would be legal also using his theory, because they to could have been built in 1974...theoretically.
[/quote]What a load of crap.. Hand made engine covers were around in the early 70's, upside down forks came out in 1982. Be realistic!

Offline GMC

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Re: Couple of other MOMS please explains
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2013, 04:40:57 pm »
stop using rules from your  2009 rule book , the rules are being updated and improved continually,
cheers 

I’m aware that the rules have changed since the 09 book, that’s why I quoted from the 09 book so I could point out that it used to be different.
Why would they remove that paragraph from the book?
Are replica frames no longer accepted?
I had trouble selling my CZ / CMS replica frames in Aust. when I first started making them, people told me they decided against them because they couldn’t be bothered with the eligibility dramas.
CMS frames were added to the book in the 90’s but now they are removed and now any talk of replica frames has been removed.
Changes should be making things clearer not making them more mystifying.


My 07 book also says that “Number of gear ratios shall remain as per original model specification”
But that was removed by the 09 book.
So I can now graft a 2000 model 6 speed box into my CZ 125??
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