What's legal ?

[Iain Cameron]

Thanks for the comments guys, GenY thank you but Im 52 and after a massive heart attack and a quad bypass I don't think you will see me doing GenY tricks on a bike . ( three laps and Im ready for a little lie down ) As for breaking the rules or the spirt of the rules Ive competed in three Nats 03,08 and 11,  every bike was standard except Dt1's but the mods were all ok by the rule book . This thread was only to ask what others thought of the idea not an outright challenge to the gents at the front of the field .
Iain 

[Davey Crocket]

Geezus....the fishermans back.....hows it going DJ?.....how come your not up in Whangarei?....those arse cheeks of yours will be sqeezed tight on the big 360B.....are you gonna kick the black poms arse?....do you think he'll bring the Beeza or is he gonna turn up in one of his new cardigans and do a photo shoot? .....I bet your only going to Whakatane so you can slip a bit of fishing in.....good luck on the weekend and look after my 360!!!!

[Curly3]

I agree with DJ's comments 100%.
If you've got the bits needed and the motivation then go for it, disregard those who criticise just for the sake of it.

[DJRacing]

I'll just be happy to be back on a bike again Joan and I know I won't be kicking Bill ass because I haven't ridden four a couple of years now and I need him on my side to kickstart the 360. My ankle won't stand up to the first compression stroke and since its a 2 smoker there's twice as many as those 4 bangers  
I wish I was going fishing as well as motocrossing this weekend because on Monday I start my next job in the worse place to be in, in New Zealand and I have to live there for 12 weeks  

I agree with DJ's comments 100%.
If you've got the bits needed and the motivation then go for it, disregard those who criticise just for the sake of it.

Iain, at the end of the day what ever the rules may state they don't say you can't make the bike so with that get building and enjoy it because you'll be a winner in the "pre76" class and I think that that era is one of the coolest of all VMX. Good Luck DJ

[09.0]

I agree with DJ's comments 100%.
If you've got the bits needed and the motivation then go for it, disregard those who criticise just for the sake of it.

it's not for the sake of it, it's for the big picture that is era racing and preserving the bikes, certainly from my perspective.
Okay so go ahead and use a 75 frame in pre 75. No big deal.
Okay what about  75 tm250? Move the shocks back and it will clearly fit in looks wise to the pre 75 era as well as not out class others in the class.
What about. 75 Maico then? Same same.
75 Cz? Closer again.
76 cr250? Move the shocks back and pre75 here we come.
My 75 rh is basically a 74 with forward mounted shocks. Surely if I retro fit it to 74 specs I can run it pre75?
Let one slip through then there is a base for the next rule stretch. It's not about being a rule nazi.
As far as the pre78 only thing dj, I think common sense would prevail and there would be no issue if the bike was run in pre 78.

[DJRacing]

Totally agree with you Brad but I'm not trying to change the rules or even go against them. What I said is that I wouldn't protest a bike like that and also I would be happy to race against a bike like that in pre75 since the engine is legal for pre75 and the frame geometry is the same as a pre75 legal bike apart from a miner engine mounting adjustment. Common sense surely would say the bike looks to belong in pre75?? So why would there be an issue with the bike running in pre75. Because the rules say so! But now you tell me that the bike shouldn't have an issue racing in pre78 because common sense would prevail and say that's where the bike belongs but the rules state that it is out of era with a pre75 motor and therefore is illegal to race in pre78.
Now I'm happy to live by the rules but what rules are we talking about now, is it MA or is it common sense or DJ's or 090's rules??  By your reckoning that bike can't break the pre75 rules (by the way of an engine mount change) but can break the rules of pre78 by racing with an out of era motor.  I ask you, where is the common sense in that??
As Worms has said, but I will state it in the complete opposite to what he means...... Wake up to yourselves before you turn a great sport into an over regulated bitch feast !!!!

As I have said many a time, I can live with any rules, common sense or not, but I struggle went some rules have to be obey religiously but the next rule can be used with common sense??? Who picks the rules we can use with common sense?? 

[maico police]

Chopping bikes to fit back a class also destroys the integrety of the bike. I thought our sport was meant to be about preserving old bikes?

[worms]

by building what ever bike you want from what ever parts will create the bitch fest and turn the sport into an over-regulated joke, the sport will gradually loose its integrety. keep the bikes original and it cuts out the whole wank-fest thats creeping into the sport. maybe there should be class's for the best non-conforming bike and the best blinged bike, best bitsa for all those who cant . yo bro!

cool runnings Worms

DJ, under the current rules a pre 60 can race in pre90, no questions asked by MA, pre means excatly that, its up to the rider where he enters his bike and then up to a race sec to determine, but once again this applies to title meets, not your every day meet.

[09.0]

Totally agree with you Brad but I'm not trying to change the rules or even go against them. What I said is that I wouldn't protest a bike like that and also I would be happy to race against a bike like that in pre75 since the engine is legal for pre75 and the frame geometry is the same as a pre75 legal bike apart from a miner engine mounting adjustment. Common sense surely would say the bike looks to belong in pre75?? So why would there be an issue with the bike running in pre75. Because the rules say so! But now you tell me that the bike shouldn't have an issue racing in pre78 because common sense would prevail and say that's where the bike belongs but the rules state that it is out of era with a pre75 motor and therefore is illegal to race in pre78.
Now I'm happy to live by the rules but what rules are we talking about now, is it MA or is it common sense or DJ's or 090's rules??  By your reckoning that bike can't break the pre75 rules (by the way of an engine mount change) but can break the rules of pre78 by racing with an out of era motor.  I ask you, where is the common sense in that??
As Worms has said, but I will state it in the complete opposite to what he means...... Wake up to yourselves before you turn a great sport into an over regulated bitch feast !!!!

As I have said many a time, I can live with any rules, common sense or not, but I struggle went some rules have to be obey religiously but the next rule can be used with common sense??? Who picks the rules we can use with common sense?? 

Well at the end of the day my thoughts are to accommodate this chaps bike. As far as I'm concerned its a pre 78 bike. Rules are always going to be flawed but with the right attitude ( read not wanting to bend the rules) you can happily abide by them with common sense and honesty.
There is a general rule that the bike is what the youngest part of the bike is. In this case it's a 75 model.
Where you are saying it has a 74 motor therefore it can't run in a class designated as for 75,76 and 77 models. If you want to run that train of thought, the bike should not be built as it does not belong in either class by your theory. You are just saying that you wouldn't protest it if it ran in pre 75 with you. If I changed my shock mounts on my rh to make it look like a 74, you wouldn't protest me either. Doesn't make it right.
If this bike was built it would be a 75 model as the youngest part is 75.
So another bike on the park, no noses out of joint re 'cheating' so to speak. So the only guys with their nose out of joint are the ones that say there was no bike ever made and its bastardising the bike so to speak.
Oh and kiora buuuddy!

[Curly3]

Chopping bikes and building " Specials " is what DT ( Short Circuit ) was built on in the early days, which is probably why I personally don't see a problem with it, to each his own I say.
Iain may be wishing he'd never mentioned it.

[vmx42]

I'll just be happy to be back on a bike again Joan and I know I won't be kicking Bill ass because I haven't ridden four a couple of years now and I need him on my side to kickstart the 360. My ankle won't stand up to the first compression stroke and since its a 2 smoker there's twice as many as those 4 bangers  

Hey DJ,
Get a compression release for the 360 and live happily ever after...
Good to have you back. 
VMX42

[Davey Crocket]

He has Jeffery....its called a "Biil Doe" release.....only problem is it also comes with a built in flaw.....

[Nathan S]

Good post Walter.

I always get yelled at when I talk about the rules, but I've seen this many times before in car racing/rallying - the best example is Improved Production. Twenty years ago, they were called "Road Registered". Fifteen years ago, it was a low budget class for the amateur racer/builder, but nowdays more than have the field has pneumatic on-board jacks and $15k gearboxes... The category has minimal resemblance to its original aims. While it is currently well supported, there's no longer a class that meets the original demand. Same goes for the old road racing Buckets, AFAIK.
It's a type of "bracket creep" - people finding the limits of the rules and pushing them over a period of time and ultimately shifting the practical and accepted limits of the category.

So no matter how much we might like the existing rules, and no matter how well they've served us in the past, they MUST be regularly updated to stop bracket creep (assuming we don't like the direction they're creeping in).
The common VMX attitude of "just build your bike to the spirit of the rules" slows down the bracket creep, but will never stop it.

This is why I'm forever harping on about getting the rules right - it's not that the current rules were failures from the start (quite the opposite, actually), it's because even the best-written set of rules will have loopholes of ambiguities that will be exposed over time.

[Nathan S]

I agree with DJ's comments 100%.
If you've got the bits needed and the motivation then go for it, disregard those who criticise just for the sake of it.

it's not for the sake of it, it's for the big picture that is era racing and preserving the bikes, certainly from my perspective.
Okay so go ahead and use a 75 frame in pre 75. No big deal.
Okay what about  75 tm250? Move the shocks back and it will clearly fit in looks wise to the pre 75 era as well as not out class others in the class.
What about. 75 Maico then? Same same.
75 Cz? Closer again.
76 cr250? Move the shocks back and pre75 here we come.
My 75 rh is basically a 74 with forward mounted shocks. Surely if I retro fit it to 74 specs I can run it pre75?
Let one slip through then there is a base for the next rule stretch. It's not about being a rule nazi.
As far as the pre78 only thing dj, I think common sense would prevail and there would be no issue if the bike was run in pre 78.

I totally agree with your sentiment, but...

If a 75 model bike is modified to 1974 specs, then it IS a 1974 model according to the rules.
I mean, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc...
We tie ourselves in knots over the rules because we talk too much about the process, and not enough about the end result.

How can a 2012-built replica frame be OK, but a slightly modified 1975 frame not be? We need to step back and look at what is being presented, and then ask "Does this bike have an advantage over the 1974 model bikes?" and "Does it fit the era/could it have been built in the era?"
When the answer is No to both questions, then the bike should be allowed with no grizzling and not even a sideways glance.

I don't want to go down the path of Dutch-style "twin-shock" bikes, because it's a travesty to butcher old bikes to suit a historic racing category. However, while we have a class structure that makes certain bikes uncompetitive in their proper class (eg: virtually every 1975 model in pre-78), it is inevitable that people will look at whether their bike can meet the earlier era rules.

[JohnnyO]

A good example of 'bracket creep' is the twinshock class in the UK. They started off with a class the same as our Evo but now it's common for many bikes to have later pre 85 era air cooled engines, modern '99 RM Suzuki conventional forks, pre '85 twin leading drum brakes and wheels, '84 model single shock bikes modified to have 2 shocks bolted on the rear etc. Hardly any of the field are production bikes that were raced back in the day.
Not saying it's going to happen here but just an example of what happens when people start pushing the boundaries of the rules..