Pre 78 Rule changes

[JohnnyO]

If you're going to propose a rule change for pre '78 i think it'd be a good idea to change the rule to 10" travel front and rear, that would cover all bikes then.
I put Fox shocks on my RM370 and then had to make spacers to restrict the travel back to 9", most aftermarket shocks will give an RM, Husky, Maico etc more than 9" travel and not many people would still be running the standard shocks.

[Slakewell]

I don't think having a limit is really needed. If for example you converted your RM to have 13inch travel it would handle like a wheel barrow full of Walruses 
Pre 78 there were so many hot up parts available to trick up your bike and as VMXers we love this stuff so why would we have rules that stop it, is really not helping the sport.

[Nathan S]

Are the YZ D models and the 77 Huskies the only examples of this reverse modification?It seems  crazy that 77 models raced in the day now have to be reverse modified to meet the class requirements.I would agree with Slakewells argument.Simo?You'd be on board wouldn't you?

Virtually all of the Euro '77 model MXers, YZ250/400D, and RM125B are all illegal in standard form.

That said, the YZs (and possibly others) only have over 9" at the brochure - to get the full 9"+ of travel, you must fully compress the top-out springs, which is impossible in use.

FWIW, a YZ125E that's been modified to have 11.5~12" of travel F&R handles quite well, and the extra suspension travel is valuable enough to outweigh the negatives on a rough or jump-filled track. A YZ125E with an aftermarket swingarm would work just as well.

[firko]

I think that placing a limit on the travel is detrimental to the class for the reasons Slakey mentioned. As long as it's stipulated that all major components must have been made prior to December 31 1977 I think the spirit of pre 78 will be maintained.

[09.0]

 As far as rear suspension are there that many bikes still running standard shocks? When purchasing new or second hand aftermarket shocks, isn't it a matter of getting the correct ones in length ? It isn't that hard to conform, at least with the rear.
So what is the down side of 10" and 10"? Were there any bikes with more than that?

[firko]

10" x 10" suspension travel would be fine in that perfect world where all bikes were kept factory stock but I remember the aftermarket industry going ape shit trying at the time to develop new ways of improving suspension travel and quality. By removing the travel limit it might perhaps encourage more racers to delve into the black art of aftermarket suspension improvement-circa 1977 and we'd see more innovative and therefore interesting bikes.

Of course, the other side of the equation would have the owners of bog stock pre '78 bikes disadvantaged by the guys with the trick bikes. Unfortunately, that's always going to be the case, where even in the pre 65 class where Metisses or Cheneys are infinitely better race bikes than a stock framed Gold Star or Triumph. It's the way our sport rolls . Racers since day one have always fiddled with what they had in a bid to improve it. By removing the suspension limit and ensuring that all mods be of the period (with the exception of consumables), we not only make it less restrictive for the racer, we also give the scrutineer one less thing to worry about.

[JohnnyO]

Even with the correct length aftermarket shocks you still end up with more than 9" travel, that was half the reason people bought them in the day. 1977 was right in the middle of the suspension evolution and the aftermarket companies were busy building longer travel shocks, forks and fork kits.
A 10" rule sounds pretty good to me.. any more than 10" is hard to obtain from a pre 78 bike without a ridiculously obvious swingarm angle and dangerously small internal fork overlap.
There would definately be a lot less bikes needing suspension measuring at the end of a title meeting instead of impounding the top 5 or 6 from each class and making the owners pull their suspension apart for measuring.

[Davey Crocket]

I think if you muck with the suspension limit you will end up not representing the pre78 class as it was meant to be...to showcase the first long travel suspension bikes....it's an in-between class and if we start making changes like that then they will end up looking just like EVO bikes.......where does it stop....water cooling kits for your YZ125C?....they where available....as soon as you open the flood gates and allow what ever suspension limit you feel like then all the 75 and some 76 model bikes will disapear into the dungeons again...shit, we have only just had the first Pre78 Nats and had a great turn out of bikes in that class and you want to kill it allready because your Husky got pinged...it's easy to comply and everybody who races and has half a brain knows it's all about suspension and you spend money setting it up to suit your weight, style,travel limits etc....it's not hard....it's been there all along....Shit, how much would a YZ360B be worth without having to limit the suspension travel?...just my opinion.

[Rossvickicampbell]

actually DC - that exact thought did cross my mind - if my B was not restricted how much better than most would it be out there in pre 75 and therefore how much sought after 

[Slakewell]

Regarding the 10" solution there are still some European models that dont fit as factory standard. In regards to my Husky getting removed from the final race points I dont find reverse engineering as the solution as the bike is stock standard in regards to suspension and I do not wish to modify it. Maybe by opening up the rules we can see some 75/76 models get really tricked up. A well set up bike with a good balance will always be faster.
Dave maybe a look at the time sheets from the Nats could show you that it is not suspension lengh that wins races but well setup bikes.As mentioned on page 1 the fastest time overall at the Nats was set with a bike with just 4' rear travel.     

[Davey Crocket]

Mic, the fastest bikes at the Nats are the best riders....us wobblers can only hope they all fall off ....old mate on your Husky would have been at the front with the Dutchie even if they where on postie bikes....oh shit, I've just offended the postie bike owners...no mail for me anymore. Theres nothing stopping the 75/6 brigade from tricking there bikes now, but.....most of them are carry over 4" travel bikes with short chassis and swingarms that would only take so much without causing further problems. I take it the Dutchie did the fastest lap time on his 440 Maico at the beginnig of the meeting when the track was like a babies bottom, what where the times at the end in regards to his 74 440 to the 77400?.

[JohnnyO]

He was 1.5 secs quicker on the '77 compared to the '74 in the 3rd motos

[09.0]

Just to confuse things a little more, both my pre 78 bikes are WELL under the suspension limit of 9". I am lucky to have 8" on both bikes.
And as a side note as I was called a cheat regarding specifically my Maico, it passed with flying colours as did my rm125 (well under the limit at the rear and spot on at the front as a few people witnessed). You only have to conform once and it's done for good.
To ask a question to you Slakewell, are the shocks on the husky original or aftermarket? Bought as new items or second hand? Rebuilt stock or aftermarket ?
I have nearly finished my pre78 250 race bike which is a '75 model which will be behind in the suspension stakes. I do not think I will be at any real disadvantage against the premier bikes in the class.

[Slakewell]

The Husky forks were the problem not the rear as there 10.5 Standard.
The same rider was faster on the much shorter travel KTM 250 which I had the time to set up to comply. 

[firko]

I think if you muck with the suspension limit you will end up not representing the pre78 class as it was meant to be...to showcase the first long travel suspension bikes....it's an in-between class and if we start making changes like that then they will end up looking just like EVO bikes.......where does it stop....water cooling kits for your YZ125C?....they where available....as soon as you open the flood gates and allow what ever suspension limit you feel like then all the 75 and some 76 model bikes will disapear into the dungeons again...shit, we have only just had the first Pre78 Nats and had a great turn out of bikes in that class and you want to kill it allready because your Husky got pinged...it's easy to comply and everybody who races and has half a brain knows it's all about suspension and you spend money setting it up to suit your weight, style,travel limits etc....it's not hard....it's been there all along....Shit, how much would a YZ360B be worth without having to limit the suspension travel?...just my opinion.

Good points....disregard my earlier blatherings .