WHAT CLASS SHOULD THIS RUN IN PRE 60 65 68 OR 70

[firko]

Michael, you haven't adressed my questions as to which Bultaco and which mate you are referring to in the previous post. I honestly don't recall any "sinking feeling" or the situation you refer to. I'm curious.

[Tim754]

 Micheal  Jikov what do you class VMX/CMX as?? Myself I have read the rule book and I have machines that meet the rules, Yes I would love to have one or both of my sons win an Australian Title,  Not to mention the then $Fortune that would have came with it. We build and we race because it is our chosen pastime . It is not a professional sport is it! It is an amateur non prize paying pastime or hobby or even sporting exercise that has structured rules , like amateur football codes, cricket, tennis , lawn bowls, equestrienne events, fishing , and countless others that are done because we enjoy it. Keep on pestering people with worthless , cry wolf, idiotic type complaints and they will just find  another pastime. Why not offer to people what you consider an except able fix to whatever your perceived problem is? 

[Bamford#69]

Hi Tim
Have you got me confused with somebody else?
I will see if I can get my user name changed to my name so no one thinks I am hiding behind a non de plume .It can be confusing for some

[Bamford#69]

Hi Mark
sorry its taken so long ,
I thought it was you who travelled from Sydney with the Bultaco rider , i am sorry if thats not right.
this would be a good time to correct the misinformation that is going on
In the last 40 years I have been competing  I have only lodged one protest,that was at the 2000 VMX Natrionals .
After the final heat, in the pre 70 250,I was directed to the impound , John Boag (CZ) and a Bultaco rider ahead of me ,in third ,a "posse" of Butaco owners showed  me that the 2nd place bike had long forks and the wrong chassis,the forks measured 215mmtravel so I lodged a protest which of course was upheld and the rider was excluded .
I want it known that I never said "F*** off you cheating B*******d"
I was also told that I could protest the CZ rear wheel ,and  that it would be upheld ,making me the National champion , I declined to do so .
Doug was never protested,but was told  the rear tyre didn't comply  ,Doug was told by the person who fitted the tyre that it would be OK, it wasn't,I measured the tyre , all the other riders tyres complied ,he was more pissed off because he was given the wrong information ,( I think Vern was also given the wrong information),I have  great respect for Doug and Vern both as riders and hard working members and officials of the Brisbane MCC.
Please dont think that protests are about people,they are making sure we all  get an equal opportunity to compete.
You asked what good could come form this unfortunate situation .
If you must give me credit for causing this situation , please give me credit for being the catalyst for the changing of that rule for the next year. check the rule books,
Mark  didn't you once write ,IT IS A SERIOUS SPORT NOT MERELY A HOBBY,and we must have rules because otherwise there would be anarchy,with all sorts of "mods" being accepted,causing us to lose some of the visual, performance and historical integrity of what our sport is all about.
My mate Mark is quite a pleasant bloke , but  his obsessive /compulsive attitude and  behaviour continualy criticising the decisions handed down by some very learned men ,a long time ago, is  become tedious, you are being disrespectful  to everybody involved including our governing body and the judicial system,
The judgement was handed down a long time ago ,you must accept this decision, like it or not ,
get over it , move on , everyone else is trying to
 

ps;save a cold one for me

[pokey]

Its a good read.. truly.

 jikov and firko , two for want of better words old gaurds of the sport  aquip with retorte.

Who is right who is wrong? hmmm
To my mind Graeme our level headed webby has it again as usual
Tis a sport boys and no more. if you see it as more than that you realy need to get out more. ...perhaps the pub or margeritaville

 I do enjoy the personal passion and experience that you guys openly inject into discussion. The world is a big place and we all see a different angle and i hope that never changes.

 Glad to have a beer and bench with either or both of you guys . Keep it coming.

[mboddy]

You know I think you've said the most important thing in this debate Tim.

It's a hobby. It's meant to be fun.

I know plenty of folk disagree with me, but seriousness of this level should be left at the front door - the time for that was years ago when maybe you could have made your mark. I'd love to win a VMX national, but really I know it means diddly squat in the scheme of things. Who'd even know or care?

But the Nationals are more serious Graeme.
Anyone that wins a State or National title has worked hard towards this goal to get it.
When I was a teenager I wanted to be Australian Champion. But I didn't have the necessary support to achieve this goal.
Since returning to racing with Historic Road Racing I have been striving to achieve this goal.
I have entered every NSW Title meeting since 1996 and given it my best shot every time.
It took until 2006 to win my first NSW Title. I am now the current NSW Champion in 3 historic Road racing classes.
I have only been able to afford to enter 2 Australian Title meetings; 2002 and 2007.
Both years I thought about the Title every day that year, going to the gym 5 times a week, lots of running, etc.
I gave it my best shot.
In 2002 I came 2nd in 3 classes but only the 350cc class had the numbers to be an Australian Title.
In 2007 I got so close. But I dropped the bike 4 corners from the end while in the lead and threw the title away.
But I did take home two 3rd place Australian Titles.
In 2008 I will go to the Australian Classic Dirt Track Titles in Canberra.
I will give it my best shot with the aim of winning the Australian Title.
I may never win the Title but I will give it my best.

I don't care who would know or care. I am doing it for me.

I make sure my bikes are 100% ok. I don't want anyone to be able to take it away from me by protest.
And what would be the point in winning if it wasn't 100% fair? I would only be cheating myself.   

If you really need to protest someone because of a hub or a tyre a few mil too wide I think you may be missing the point. That's just petty, no two ways about it and right outside what the spirit of VMX is about. I couldn't live with myself if I won a title because I'd successfully protested someone on such flimsy grounds.

And don't tell me it's because the rules say X, or the rules need to be shown up. Nathan S has clearly shown plenty of times that the rules are strong guidelines only, they don't hold up to a detailed scrutiny at all.

Why is it so hard for some folk to just see this sport for what it is? A fun past time. I'm glad I've never had to witness any of this sort of thing, it would leave one hell of a sour taste in my mouth.

In order to protest a bike you have to put your money where your mouth is.
The MA Steward at the meeting is going to consider the following when determining any protest:
5.1.2.4 c) The principles of natural justice must apply,
5.1.2.4 f) The Steward must determine the protest according to equity, good conscience and the substantial merits of the case,

If a competitor has made an honest mistake and has not obtained any advantage then no Steward that I know would uphold the protest.

Protesting is necessary to stop blatant cheating.
An actual example;
The bike was put through scrutineering with the original carbys.
During the lunch break it was noticed that the carbies had been replaced with Keihin PWK crescent slide carbies.
The bike was protested and he was removed from the results. 

[firko]

While I agree with Graeme that this should be fun, I think that the seriousness of any Australian Championship causes us to make sure that all of the competitors have as level a playing field as possible. Having said that I think that a certain amount of humanity should be used in the application of those rules. If the particular bike fails to comply it should be assessed as to whether the non compliance is going to give that bike a performance advantage over any others in its class. If the non compliant aspect does constitute a definite performance advantage it should definitely be knocked back.
If that non compliance doesn't give the bike any performance advantage, like our tyre situation, the rider should be informed of the dodgy aspect and advised to fix it in the future but should be allowed to race. I think that in a bid to help create that level playing field, Jikov and Peter Lawson are taking it way too far.

Feel free to pop into the Kevlar Kompound for a cold Kozel Pokey.

[Graeme M]

I do agree that at an Aussie National Championship we do have to have rules and we do have to employ them. My point though is that taking it to the Nth degree is pointless. Firstly the rules are sufficiently rubbery that there is no doubt someone could use them to their advantage with mischievous protests, and secondly the advantage gained through the sorts of matters raised here (eg wrong hubs, tyre widths, etc) would be minimal. Naturally I do not disagree with picking up on say a 1974 CR125 running 7" rear travel, or later model forks, because it is clearly no longer a 1974 CR125 as we have agreed a 1974 CR125 should be for VMX.

But I have watched plenty of kids let loose on some heap of shit old dirtbike (and the lad at Kembla on the clapped out XL500 Honda comes to mind here, or the kid on the rusty old TT500 at Wyalong, or any number of kids on Bullys and things at Jack Hogg) absolutely flogging old blokes on state of the art vintage weapons to know that the bikes don't make THAT much difference.

My point is that in vintage dirt bike racing at least, the rules should really only serve to be a guide to ensuring the bikes are true to the spirit. To imagine that by protesting a machine for having a tyre 1/2" too wide, or with a sprocket that is bolted on or whatever other pathetically piddling matter you can raise is somehow a worthy thing to do is to my mind to be way out in left field. If you can't beat a bloke and then pretend to yourself that the reason was because he had a 2mm larger carby then I'd say you weren't ever gonna beat him.

And if the end result is the loss of a good bloke with a great old bike from the sport, then I reckon your trophy is absolutely bloody worthless. Regardless of whether you get to call yourself a Champion. Surely competing with integrity, fairness and a sense of occasion is as important as outright results in this sport? I've said it before, the time to have been focused on winning to the exclusion of all else was 20-30 years ago.

Mark B, I take what you've said on board. But I think that road racing is a different kettle of fish. Very small machine differences can have quite significant effects on performance, particularly engine differences. I think achieving a level playing field in that discipline is far harder than in motocross. Mind you, the ease with which you used to blow me off on my RGV with your TDR proved that the rider is still pretty important...

EDIT: By the way, I am aware that by and large VMX in Australia is run pretty well and we don't have many such incidents. I am also not having a go at any particular individual, I am more pushing my own philosophy that VMX should be as much about the spirit as it is about being serious. Luckily, every event I have ever been to has been good fun and I have seen only a handful of weird incidents, so I feel fairly confident that our sport actually DOES go much the way I believe it should. And I am always amazed at the sheer breadth of knowledge and experience that people like Firko display in these discussions!

[Tim754]

Sorry too all about name mix ups. Please except my belated apologies  . I have not been here for four+ days due to "Port collapse at exchange"  whatever Telstra means by that?? Tim

[VMX247]

I was looking for a classic mx/dt pre60 eligibilty thread and found this one !!   

18.5.0.8 d) My question:
Pre1960 Class No Ceriani type forks  are permitted,this includes MP,REH,Husky,CZ,BetoBultaco,Montaesa or late BSA/Triumph permitted ??
thanks for the answer
cheers A