What is this thing called carbon tax?

[Bioflex]

I don't think it really matters whether you believe in mankind induced climate change or not.  Even if you do, the issue of climate change is a global one and anything that Australia does is totally and utterly irrelevant.  Why?

Currently Australia emits 1.4% of the worlds CO2 emissions.

Even if all of Australia's CO2 emissions ceased completely today:  The increase in China's emissions (at the current and future predicted rate) would make up for ALL of Australia's emissions in 6 months from now.  And there's NOTHING we can do to prevent that happening.  Nothing.  

So ask youself:  

Why should we, a country that has a natural economic advantage of low population, low cost (fossil fuel produced) energy, suddenly burdon ourselves with a Carbon tax that will achieve absolutely nothing, other than possibly destroy what little economic advantages we have now and cause dramatic economic harm?  Just to "feel green" ?  You've got to be joking right?

So, regardless of whether you believe in climate change or not, it just is not in all of our best interests to shackle ourselves with a Carbon Tax or ETS until China does something meaningful about it's emissions.

If everybody has the attitude that the problem is too big and we only contribute a miniscule amount to it, then nothing will ever get done.
In many ways it is an extremely brave move by Australia to be taking the first step, for all those who are saying we will be giving up all of our advantages, well doesn't that mean we are best placed to do it?
The worse the economic situation a country is in, the more they are going to suffer when any additional taxes are introduced. In Australia we are currently enjoying the best standard of living we have ever had and are sitting better than almost any other country in a financial sense.
 If any country can take "a hit" then we would be it.
Perhaps the whole process could be structured better than is planned, it would be great to see more incentives in place for alternative energy sources, but taxing the polluters does have the same effect that people are more likely to then turn to more environmental measures.
As someone has pointed out already, most people are shitting themselves as we have become such a huge drain on energy and resources. Since the Chinese revolution when goods have become ridiculously cheap, it seems "consumerism" is at its absolute worst.

I live in a modest 3 bedroom house with my wife and daughter, we shut off half as we don't use it.
Due to this, we heat half, turn off lights when not necessary and are just generally conscious.
We live in the coldest part of Australia (so should use the most energy) yet our power bill never gets over $300 a quarter.
Our house isn't particularly well insulated and was built well before people started putting effort into making them more efficient.

I have friends interstate living in Mcmansions constantly buying so called green appliances, have had their house built to a 5 star energy rating, yet their power bills are close to 3 times that of ours.

They change their cars every few years (which is extremely polluting on the environment as all that steel creates huge amounts of waste) while I drive a well maintained dunger which I will probably keep for another 10.

Basically as it has been pointed out already, if you live modestly and don't madly consume then this tax won't affect you much at all.
The biggest pity seems to be all the concessions which are being made for the average punter. Taking away the stick will unfortunately negate any need for people to be a bit more frugal which is really what this is all about.

 

[Nathan S]

If everybody has the attitude that the problem is too big and we only contribute a miniscule amount to it, then nothing will ever get done.
In many ways it is an extremely brave move by Australia to be taking the first step, for all those who are saying we will be giving up all of our advantages, well doesn't that mean we are best placed to do it?
The worse the economic situation a country is in, the more they are going to suffer when any additional taxes are introduced. In Australia we are currently enjoying the best standard of living we have ever had and are sitting better than almost any other country in a financial sense.
 If any country can take "a hit" then we would be it.
Perhaps the whole process could be structured better than is planned, it would be great to see more incentives in place for alternative energy sources, but taxing the polluters does have the same effect that people are more likely to then turn to more environmental measures.
As someone has pointed out already, most people are shitting themselves as we have become such a huge drain on energy and resources. Since the Chinese revolution when goods have become ridiculously cheap, it seems "consumerism" is at its absolute worst.

I live in a modest 3 bedroom house with my wife and daughter, we shut off half as we don't use it.
Due to this, we heat half, turn off lights when not necessary and are just generally conscious.
We live in the coldest part of Australia (so should use the most energy) yet our power bill never gets over $300 a quarter.
Our house isn't particularly well insulated and was built well before people started putting effort into making them more efficient.

I have friends interstate living in Mcmansions constantly buying so called green appliances, have had their house built to a 5 star energy rating, yet their power bills are close to 3 times that of ours.

They change their cars every few years (which is extremely polluting on the environment as all that steel creates huge amounts of waste) while I drive a well maintained dunger which I will probably keep for another 10.

Basically as it has been pointed out already, if you live modestly and don't madly consume then this tax won't affect you much at all.
The biggest pity seems to be all the concessions which are being made for the average punter. Taking away the stick will unfortunately negate any need for people to be a bit more frugal which is really what this is all about.

 

Amen.

And in response to Ajay's original point:
"I don't see why Mainline should stop molesting goats, because he molests fewer than you do"...
Apparently China (not so sure about India) are happy to work toward significant reductions on CO2 emissions, as they widely accept human caused climate change.
But they aren't going to do so until the western world moves.
Catch 22, or time to be an adult?

[AjayVMX]

Apparently China (not so sure about India) are happy to work toward significant reductions on CO2 emissions, as they widely accept human caused climate change.

Oh yeah?  What is your published evidence of this?

All China have said is that they will reduce thier CO2 intensity as a proportion of GDP.  But China's GDP is forecast to grow dramatically in the next 10 years (as it has for the last 10).  So even if they HALVE their emissions intensity but still actually double their GDP, you will end up with 50% MORE CO2 emissions than you would at the current intensity (high).  And they won't be halving it either... 

So China is not intending to do anything at all about actual reductions in total emissions, just installing slightly more emissions efficient technologies.  And by the way, their new energy growth is still currently forecast to include around 70% being produced by new coal fired power stations.

By the way, why don't you go over to China and tell them that they really should adopt democratic elections, because Australia does.  I'm betting you will get a similar response to the idea that if Australia adopts a Carbon Tax, China will too. 

[Iain Cameron]

I have read enough , I have no offspring (ringbarked the family tree) ,Im 51 this year so Ill be dead before every thing warms up . So stuff it Ill burn fuel use elec , care factor zero .

[Mike52]

Not really the true cost of cigarettes are borne by the health system ie you and I pay for the care of smokers suffering of lung cancer, and Mike I doubt any  'study' of that nature was ever undertaken.Let alone come to conclusions as silly as that.

For Lozza
 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199710093371506
http://ckmurray.blogspot.com/2011/06/smoking-decreases-health-costs-to.html
This is the best one ---> http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-04-08-fda-tobacco-costs_N.htm

So Graeme hows the debate coming along ?
Sure has created some excitement  

Has anyone noticed that the country,s condemning us for our pollution all have nuclear power ?

[Marc.com]

Has anyone noticed that the country,s condemning us for our pollution all have nuclear power ?

Nothing wrong with nuclear power .... we only had .210 becquerels of Celesium  137 in our drinking water yesterday. Could be worse.... in Tokyo 'glass half full' has quite different meaning 

BTW Tokyo Electric are still planning a few new reactors as part of their environmental strategy and to reduce CO2 emissions.

[mx250]

If everybody has the attitude that the problem is too big and we only contribute a miniscule amount to it, then nothing will ever get done.
In many ways it is an extremely brave move by Australia to be taking the first step, for all those who are saying we will be giving up all of our advantages, well doesn't that mean we are best placed to do it?
The worse the economic situation a country is in, the more they are going to suffer when any additional taxes are introduced. In Australia we are currently enjoying the best standard of living we have ever had and are sitting better than almost any other country in a financial sense.

So because Australia has been prudent in the past it is now time to be imprudent?


 

If any country can take "a hit" then we would be it.

The world has an enormous over population problem as well, something like 60 million refugees. Australia is one of the best placed countries in the world to facilitate these people. In the same logic lets throw open the doors and let them in even if it means we will become a third world country in the process and become part of the problem in the future.

Perhaps the whole process could be structured better than is planned, it would be great to see more incentives in place for alternative energy sources, but taxing the polluters does have the same effect that people are more likely to then turn to more environmental measures.

They are not polluters they are producers. But if we are going to have action lets make it specific action and action which doesn't disadvantage us.

As someone has pointed out already, most people are shitting themselves as we have become such a huge drain on energy and resources. Since the Chinese revolution when goods have become ridiculously cheap, it seems "consumerism" is at its absolute worst.

If you want to talk consumerism lets talk international and intra mation jet flights. 19% of the carbon omissions are produced by burning kero in the stratosphere.

I live in a modest 3 bedroom house with my wife and daughter, we shut off half as we don't use it.
Due to this, we heat half, turn off lights when not necessary and are just generally conscious.
We live in the coldest part of Australia (so should use the most energy) yet our power bill never gets over $300 a quarter.
Our house isn't particularly well insulated and was built well before people started putting effort into making them more efficient.

I agree. If we have spefic issues lets address the specific issues. We've had more than 40 years to build better house's and the market place has produced the clap trap that we now have. And this is the mechanism that the govt is now to entrust to bring change. The market place is notoriously fickle and not rational.

I have friends interstate living in Mcmansions constantly buying so called green appliances, have had their house built to a 5 star energy rating, yet their power bills are close to 3 times that of ours.

They change their cars every few years (which is extremely polluting on the environment as all that steel creates huge amounts of waste)

If you think steel is bad find out what the 'dust to dust' environmental cost of aluminum and nickle is. And that is the current Greenie answer to 'feel good'. And then do a 'dust to dust' on solar and windmills. There are better solutions out there. Make massive investments in all these inefficient solutiuons and degrade the economy in the process and there won't be the monies for the efficient solutions when they become available.

It would be smarter to put time and money in to research and get it right first time. The Carbon Trading is a mad emotionally driven rush spurred by self interest and commercial opportunity of a few, and sold on emotion.

Basically as it has been pointed out already, if you live modestly and don't madly consume then this tax won't affect you much at all.

Meanwhile the country and economy we all rely on, either directly or indirectly, goes down the tubes.

The biggest pity seems to be all the concessions which are being made for the average punter. Taking away the stick will unfortunately negate any need for people to be a bit more frugal which is really what this is all about.

Which make it bad policy and a political foot ball. Which is another reason I opposed GST - they excepted religion and political parties.

[Graeme M]

Yes Mike it has stirred quite a debate. And some very interesting views have been expressed. I am no clearer on how the CO2 tax actually works, but the consensus here seems to be that it is not supported, or at least not now by Australia leading the field.

So it appears that the community sentiment is as I've seen expressed elsewhere. I remain curious at why this sentiment isn't really being expressed more broadly.

The government appears bent on doing it and they would appear to be copping a hiding in the polls/surveys. Mr Rabbit says the Libs will scrap it when they return to power. The likely outcome then is the tax introduced, the Libs voted in, the tax scrapped. So, a lot of setup/admin costs for nothing?

It's a curly one alright, and the position is neatly summarised very well by AjayVMX for the Against side and Nathan S/Bioflex on the Fors.

My own view is largely that of Ajay. The fact that we see global temps largely stable for the past 10 years and ocean heat content declining (matched by a decline in sea level rise acceleration) seems to indicate that something is trumping CO2 driven AGW. That could be soot from China of course as is argued, but the simpler answer is that both warming and cooling cycles are largely natural and most likely solar derived. I don't doubt CO2 driven warming but I think it's at the very low end of the scale - ie climate sensitivity is low. Thus there is no great urgency for Australia to act now.

However, I do agree that our consumer based society with never ending growth is most likely not sustainable. I'd rather see Australia's efforts lead the way in reducing that however I have no idea what you do. How do we wean Westerners from the teat of material hedonism?

Now you'll have to excuse me, I have some footpegs to polish....

[motomaniac]

Has anyone noticed that the country,s condemning us for our pollution all have nuclear power ?

Nothing wrong with nuclear power ....

Thats why BO put a no media order out on Omaha Nebraska - coz there nothing going on there right?

[Slakewell]

I hate the Mad Monk and I don't believe he has a better plan. Labour is wrong about this tax and it's reason why we must have it I hope it brings down there leadership.The Greens are a lieing pack of scare mongers who believe there own bullshit.
Sadly in this country we vote in the prick who scares us the most or promises less change the major voting populous in Aus are conservative sheep. 

[the stig]

     For my money global warming depends on how the Earth is revolving around the Sun
     they reckon a 1 degree shift on its rotation is all it takes to cause a Drought or global
     cooling .
     For my money the biggest problem with the wold is Over population have a look at where
     what part of the World the people that the Government are letting in are from other Countrys.
     They are coming from places where they breed like blow flies they have all Ro#ted there
     own countrys Up.
     For those people that don't remember the  Old Communist way of Government it was to have
    the majority of people Reliant on hand outs from them to survive as in Buying Votes .

         Poppy..

[crash n bern]

Please watch and wake up .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hRPRxXFg4&feature=share

No problem there, just implement a Coal seam gas tax.  Problem solved.

[Mike52]

I remain curious at why this sentiment isn't really being expressed more broadly.

Oh Graeme.
They don,t have a forum

[Rossvickicampbell]

Mr Slakewell - I agree - for many years now I don't think we hve voted in whom we want/like but go for the party/person we dislike the least!

[firko]

We'd better get used to the Greens calling the shots from here on in. Now that they've got the balance of power in the senate we can expect a lot more 'green' oriented legislation. As much as the Gillard Labor government has disappointed us on many different levels, I think that from the moment we got a hung government with the green and independents holding the deciding vote in any government decisions it's a bit rich to totally blame the Labor Party for implementing the Carbon Tax. My theory is that they sold their souls to the greens to keep a hold of power and the Carbon Tax is one of the trade offs from that alliance.

I'm certain that if Oakshott, Windsor and 'Mad Bob' Katter had decided to go with a Liberal government instead of Labor, today we'd be all criticising the Abbott government for their implementation of a Carbon Tax. Whoever got the poisoned chalice of hung government was destined to be the puppet of Bob Browns Greens. Abbott and his crew must have sighed in relief when Labor won the vote as if it'd gone their way it'd be Abbott copping the shit, not Gillard.