What is this thing called carbon tax?

[motomaniac]

You've made some valid points there Graeme.
Some responses to the ones I don't agree with:


2.
Look at how many Canberran homes are still being built without eves or insulation (both representing tiny portions of the cost of a new house, and less than the difference in a few years' power bills) - the additional cost of the tax is intended to make people think about these things, rather than simply continuing their consumption.

When was the last time that you saw a house new house without insulation?

http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/topics/design_build/siting/energy_ratings

for a minute I thought that Canberra had seceded but it seems they use the same BCA as the rest of us.

Maybe you should get out a bit more ,or was it just a shot in the dark?

[frostype400]

I don't understand though how any one can assume that the power companies will just hit the lab and bang find a new way to produce power I am all for them putting up wind generaters or whatever alternative energy they want to do but I look at it this way.

If in our line of work our material goes up so does our price if our petrol goes up so does our price if our price of grocceries goes up so does our price and if we think that our standard of living has dropped we aren't going to take it on the chin we will put up our prices and big bussiness will do the exact same they aren't just going to take a hit on there profits and not do anything about it and they are aren't inventors they are bussiness they could invest in alternate energy but they probably might not as well they will just increase prices and that will flow on.

[motomaniac]

Someone also asked: "Where does the replacement baseload 2000MW power supply come from when they shut down the brown coal power station in VIC?"  Also, where's the money in the plan for that?  Not there, no plan.

You realize that they have hooked VIC power up to TAS power and are selling power from VIC --->to TAS.
[Yep I don,t understand that one and neither do the Tasmanian people.]
The connection is ALREADY THERE . 

Sweet so when Hazelwood close's we just pull the plug on " Brownmania" and we've done our bit.

[Nathan S]

They're not just gonna pull the plug on 25% of Victoria's power supply, OK?
Can we stop perpetuating that myth at the same time as we stop with the volcano myth?
It will be the first to go once alternatives are in place, not next week.

[motomaniac]

They're not just gonna pull the plug on 25% of Victoria's power supply, OK?
Can we stop perpetuating that myth at the same time as we stop with the volcano myth?
It will be the first to go once alternatives are in place, not next week.

no thats not the talk around here.Its one of the oldest and worst for emissions .closer has been in the wind for alongtime ( since Rudd's clean coal idea and before, its too antiquated ),Carbon tax might just seal it. Its size would suggest that it cant be 25%.Alternatives wont be inplace for years/decades.
 

[motomaniac]

Nuclear power is not the demon that the coal industry would make you believe.  You must always remember that for 30 years coal industry has written guberment policy on power and just gotten the guberment of the day to sign it.

Its the other way around Mate , The Nuc industry (GE)
has been in control for 30 years - hence the understating about Fukushima and Barry O putting a press ban on the recent Nuclear situation in Nebraska.(that wasn't the first time either)

Germany , where the Greens were founded, who had the first Green member of Parliment and the first Green coalition government in the world stopped building Nuc plants years ago (some half finished) and is completely phasing them out with a mixture of alternatives including new Coal Plants and yes the Greens are still part of the goverment there. Cohin- Bendit (Danny the Red)sits on the EU council as a Green Party member from Germany.Oh and they have carbon tax in the EU don't they?

[Nathan S]

no thats not the talk around here.
 

OK. So you really believe they'll pull the pin without an alternative power supply? That the already questionable Vic power supply will be further jeopordised?
$100 says that when its shut down, the Vicco consumers won't see the difference.

[motomaniac]

no thats not the talk around here.
 

OK. So you really believe they'll pull the pin without an alternative power supply? That the already questionable Vic power supply will be further jeopordised?
$100 says that when its shut down, the Vicco consumers won't see the difference.

no they won't see much difference , especially if they have the op out of supply to Tas

[AjayVMX]

Actually, I was being slightly tongue in cheek about Hazelwood.

The actual plan is to progressively convert each module of the plant to gas firing, which would  greatly reduce the emissions but maintain the power supply.  The only downside on this is that the gas costs WAY more to run and the conversion will cost billions.    A great step forward for mankind...

[Nathan S]

You've made some valid points there Graeme.
Some responses to the ones I don't agree with:


2.
Look at how many Canberran homes are still being built without eves or insulation (both representing tiny portions of the cost of a new house, and less than the difference in a few years' power bills) - the additional cost of the tax is intended to make people think about these things, rather than simply continuing their consumption.

When was the last time that you saw a house new house without insulation?

http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/topics/design_build/siting/energy_ratings

for a minute I thought that Canberra had seceded but it seems they use the same BCA as the rest of us.

Maybe you should get out a bit more ,or was it just a shot in the dark?

So its changed in the last 12 months - good news, but hardly a sign of the public or the industry leaping into action. The fact that it took a Labor/Greens govt so long to legislate it says something. As does the fact that they had to legislate it...
There's still a lot of houses being built locally without eaves, despite their absolutely minimal cost and their proven benefits and despite the area's above average income.

Also: On volcanoes, I'll let people do their own research:
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=volcano+co2&oq=volcano+co2&aq=f&aqi=g1g-s1g8&aql=undefined&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1702l9253l0l11l11l0l0l0l0l287l1873l3.0.7l10&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=5119d89b945c33ba&biw=1680&bih=871

[motomaniac]

2.
Look at how many Canberran homes are still being built without eves or insulation (both representing tiny portions of the cost of a new house, and less than the difference in a few years' power bills) - the additional cost of the tax is intended to make people think about these things, rather than simply continuing their consumption.

When was the last time that you saw a house new house without insulation?

http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/topics/design_build/siting/energy_ratings

for a minute I thought that Canberra had seceded but it seems they use the same BCA as the rest of us.

Maybe you should get out a bit more ,or was it just a shot in the dark?
[/quote]

So its changed in the last 12 months - good news, but hardly a sign of the public or the industry leaping into action. The fact that it took a Labor/Greens govt so long to legislate it says something. As does the fact that they had to legislate it...
There's still a lot of houses being built locally without eaves, despite their absolutely minimal cost and their proven benefits and despite the area's above average income.
[/quote]




No it came  in the Howard years,2000 - 2003 read up -not the labor/green years.Only the updated rating 6 came in in 2010.In 35 years of building I've never been part of a project ,residential or commercial that didn't have  insulation.The legislation I imagine was to cover volume/esate type builders who cut corners , and their price to suck unsuspecting first home owners in.
http://www.abcb.gov.au/index.cfm?objectid=7384D70A-28B9-11DE-835E001B2FB900AA

[Nathan S]

When I first moved to Canberra, they were still building homes with woefully inadequate insulation - a female friend bought a newly constructed townhouse in Ngunnawal, and it remains the most woefully insulated non-tent I've ever slept in. The relationship didn't last long enough for me to be able to tell you how it went in Summer, but I can havea guess...

Her place wasn't the only one like it - another friend still speaks with amazement at having to argue with the house salesman to put more than foil insulation into their house. They moved in five(?) years ago.


Canberra has a Labor/Green govt too, BTW.

[Mick22]

no thats not the talk around here.
 

OK. So you really believe they'll pull the pin without an alternative power supply? That the already questionable Vic power supply will be further jeopordised?
$100 says that when its shut down, the Vicco consumers won't see the difference.

Vicco consumers are going to see a massive difference in price!! As far as power supply goes we will not see any difference. But don't believe what is in the press at the moment, Hazelwood isn't going anywhere for a long time to come without the government pouring Billions in to replace it. Even then we are looking at a 8-10 years minimum to decommision. There is no easy fix for now, you just can't lose that much base load generation with out a viable replacement, forget solar & wind they have their place but its not for base load generation.

Hazelwood is a heavy polluter but is very cheap to run, which ties in with the insulation debate. I went to a industry seminar a few years back where they showed that Victoria had just about the worst insulated and poorly built (energy wise) housing in the developed world because we have never had any incentive to make housing more efficent, due to having such cheap power. Now power prices are going thru the roof but most of the housing is still leaky with little or no insulation. The government craps on about 6 star ratings, if we have 6 star buildings then countries such as canada, france etc are about 35 star...Houses in  Canada that are in snow for 9 months of the year use less heating energy than the average Victorian house.

And forget about Nuclear power being the answer, it was a dying technology before Fukishima now no one will invest in it. Nuclear had its glory days in the early 70's but has become way to dear to be viable...the USA hasn't started on a new Nuclear Plant since 1974, China is the only country interested in it now, I guess free labor and no safety standards help make it viable. They have about 20 Nuc plants under construction and they are bringing 2 new coal powered plants online PER WEEK!! the equivelent in emissions of about 50 Hazlewoods over the last 2 years.......

[AjayVMX]

More detail on the how interested the Greens are in destroying the coal industry, as opposed to protecting the world from Climate Change.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/so-bob-do-you-really-want-to-save-the-planet/story-e6frg71x-1226094123357

And the other revelation in the Carbon Tax plan is that the "target" (read blind wish and breakable promise) 80% reduction of Australia's emissions by the year 2050 is also a myth.  It relies on buying $57billion a year in carbon credits from overseas (presumably from countries that CAN actually reduce their emissions, something which may never happen).

So they increased the headline target emissions reduction by 2050, merely by allowing for more carbon credits to be purchased, so that they can say they are doing MORE for the environment?

Are they serious? 

Of course not.  This was (and remains) only about wealth redistribution to help Labor in the polls (a forlorn hope) and keep the Greens quiet.

[mx250]

....... only about wealth redistribution ....

I think you give them too much credit. I think it is just muddled 'do anything but seen to be doing something' thinking, driven by panic and a desire for power.

I reckon there should be compulsory psychological profiling and a pre-selection vetting by a panel of experts before these people even stand for election.