cheap Metisse frames kits - interest? OPEN FORUM

[TM BILL]

Now that the original thread has become the original authors notice board
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=18911.0

I will respond on this thread

Quote from Cheapracer

Now that I can discuss things a bit more quietly ...

For those who are technically interested I am getting 3D Laser Scans of various bikes which will then be "straightened" in a computer and a jig made from those dimensions accordingly(again with laser measuring equipment), then a frame will be built on that jig and then that frame will be laser scanned again and compared to the original scan and the jig adjusted as required.

After spending some time with Dave Kellet and sending quite a number of people to him over the years, rarely is there such thing as a straight frame and jigging from a 20 year old, 30 year old or worse still a genuine '60's motocrosser thats had the life bashed out of it is just silly. 

BTW, many top racers around Brisbane (and further away) buy a brand new bike for road or racing (sportsbike and MX) and the first place it goes is Dave's and should be on the "must do" list for an old VMX bike, the riding difference is worth more in time around a lap than any other engine mod you could make for the same price besides the safety aspect of a bike that tracks properly over whoops and jumps

Im confused

The sport or hobby those of us on this forum generaly share is vintage dirtbikes , bikes from a bygone era with all their spindly frames ,underwhelming brakes and tempremental habits .
When racing these old girls we are governed by a set of rules aimed to keep an eveen playing field and maintain the integrity of that era.
Since the early days of VMX we now have classes right through from year dot to (in some places ) pre 90, so something for everybody .

There is a huge chasm of development ,quality control , materials etc between the earliest and latest eras in witch we race and if you still want more theres modern MX .

So my confusion is how could  these proposed new generation frames with their perfect geometry and modern welding techniques be considered for the earliest classes of vintage racing .

If you so desire to race something that handles so much better than an old Mettise in VMX then why not ride a pre 90 bike .

Im concerned that if this sort of frame and other componentry is allowed into pre 65 racing then the magic of that era will be lost in a short time and replaced with a plastic version .

However cheapracer if you wannabuild one of these then hmmmm

http://flashbackfab.com/pages/excel00.html

[vmx42]

So my confusion is how could  these proposed new generation frames with their perfect geometry and modern welding techniques be considered for the earliest classes of vintage racing.

Hey Bill,
I don't think you really have anything to worry about. All he is doing is making them accurately, which is what the Rickman brothers were trying to do originally within in the confines of the available technology of the day.

I don't think the materials will be vastly improved, nor the quality of the welding. Especially the welding as they will have to be bronze welded to maintain the Metisse feel.

I doubt it will end up being vastly different from a GMC copy of a HL frame. I would wager that Geoffs frames are probably more accurate than the originals, and that certainly doesn't compromise their status as replicas. Nor does it compromise their legality in the eyes of the officialdom.

I very much doubt this is the beginning of the end, more likely just one guys dream of making something special available to the market. Again, just like GMC or any of the other individuals around the globe producing replica frames. The purists will always want the originals, but as they become older, more scarce and more valuable they will tend end up as garage queens.

But if anybody dares to start making replica TS125 frames then they will be in trouble…

Catch ya at CD8,
VMX42

[Marc.com]

As I am prone to mention vintage roadracing, got a big boost from reproduced Nortons, G50s, Patons, MVs etc etc. Summerfield or one of the specialists will sell you a 60hp 9000 rpm Manx, then you stick Gardner, Whitham or the former world champion of your choice on it and go out iand win.

Is this Vintage racing, probably not but it is very cool, bit the same with the proposed Rickman reps ...... it will help to create interest in pre 65 which is probably needed. I notice there is a lot of interest in CCM only racing in the UK, I would say the big twins would work best in a class totally dedicated to them.

[firko]

As expected, I've got a couple of points to make on Marks Metisse "replica" project but the thing that disturbed me most was his locking of the thread. Now I may be wrong but I was always under the impression that discussion involved more than one person. "Now that I can discuss things a bit more quietly ..." by locking off the thread and using it purely to sprout his own beliefs is a misuse of this forum. The OZVMX forum is not a place for any of us to sprout our philosophies or to advertise our wares without the option to be challenged or to enter into open discussion on the subject at hand.
I'm disappointed that Graeme has allowed this misuse of the forum and welcome TM Bills reopening of the discussion.

Another thing that bothered me was Marks hesitantcy in answering what I thought were sensible questions regarding the manufacturing process of his Metisse frames. When he became uncomfortable with my questions he locked the forum, called me a troublemaker and then proceeded to give an answer that would have partially adressed my concerns. Unfortunately the ability to respond to and further discuss his answer is lost because of his thread lockup.

As far as the idea of reproducing Metisse frames, I think it's a perfectly good idea but I repeat that it must be done properly and be a perfect replica of the original item. Despite others cries that there isn't a market for a Metisse replica, I think that if cheap enough and marketed correctly it could open opportunities for more people to enter a class that was previously seen as a haven for the 'leather patch brigade'. I just have my doubts about it being done corectly without a proper jig. 

[vmx42]

Hey Firko,
Not to discount any of your concerns, but until he has a product to show us I can't see the point in getting worked up about it.

If he delivers as promised, then the marketplace will decide if he succeeds. I can't say why he didn't want to answer your questions, but I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt and judge him on the product he produces. Then you can make an informed decision.

I will wait with baited breath, but I won't be holding my breath either.

…and as for locking threads [and deleting posts] I think we all pretty much agree it is a bit piss weak. Put up or shut up, but don't hide or delete your posts. If you are wrong - admit it, but at least have the courage to stand behind your words - or don't submit them in the first place.

VMX42

[firko]

Jeff....I'm not getting worked up at all....my main concern is the kick in the balls of public forum democracy displayed in Marks locking of the thread. The future success or failure of the Metisse project is fully in the hands of Mark Beckman so it's all down to "if you talk the talk, you've gotta walk the walk".

I do have one question though...where's Jikov while all of this is coming down? In the past whenever I have sprouted a different or cheaper way of entering the pre 65 class, Mr Jikov comes down on me like a ton of shite. Now we have his so called best mate sprouting new Chang Jiang wheels for pre '65 and TIG welded Metisse frames and not a wimper from Marks QVMX co founder. Funny that.

[Mike52]

…and as for locking threads [and deleting posts] I think we all pretty much agree it is a bit piss weak. Put up or shut up, but don't hide or delete your posts. If you are wrong - admit it, but at least have the courage to stand behind your words - or don't submit them in the first place.

VMX42

there is another reason for deleting threads VMX.
In my case the guy the thread was about  read the thread and saw the pictures of the " PERFECT CHROME" so there was no need to continue. He had got the message , end of story.
Mike

[cheapracer]

Hmmmm, Sour Cream-Rhubarb Squares!! 

Ingredients

1/2 cup white sugar
1 tablespoon butter
1 1/2 cups packed brown sugar
1 egg
1 teaspoon baking soda
1 cup sour cream
1/2 cup chopped walnuts
1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1/2 cup shortening
2 cups all-purpose flour
1/2 teaspoon salt
1 1/2 cups chopped rhubarb
Directions

Preheat oven to 350 degrees F. Grease and flour 13 x 9 x 2 inch pan.

Mix sugar, nuts, melted butter and cinnamon until crumbly and set aside.

In a separate bowl, cream together brown sugar, shortening and egg.

Add flour, soda and salt to creamed mixture alternately with sour cream. Lastly, stir in rhubarb.

Pour mixture into pan and sprinkle with reserved topping.

Bake at 350 degrees F for 45 to 50 minutes. Cut in squares and serve warm or cool.

[cheapracer]

Im confused

I see your confusion being in NZ, I said "replica" whereas for you I should have said "repluca".

[TM BILL]

Im confused

The sport or hobby those of us on this forum generaly share is vintage dirtbikes , bikes from a bygone era with all their spindly frames ,underwhelming brakes and tempremental habits .
When racing these old girls we are governed by a set of rules aimed to keep an eveen playing field and maintain the integrity of that era.
Since the early days of VMX we now have classes right through from year dot to (in some places ) pre 90, so something for everybody .

There is a huge chasm of development ,quality control , materials etc between the earliest and latest eras in witch we race and if you still want more theres modern MX .

So my confusion is how could  these proposed new generation frames with their perfect geometry and modern welding techniques be considered for the earliest classes of vintage racing .

If you so desire to race something that handles so much better than an old Mettise in VMX then why not ride a pre 90 bike .

Im concerned that if this sort of frame and other componentry is allowed into pre 65 racing then the magic of that era will be lost in a short time and replaced with a plastic version .

Im confused

I for one am not surprised in the least.

I see your confusion being in NZ, I said "replica" whereas for you I should have said "repluca".

Wev'e never met  but those who know me including a lot of members of this forum will tell you i dont have a Kiwi accent     Where i come from we would say Copy or knock off 

[Mike52]

Don,t side track the guy TM he,s got a frame to build and hasn,t the time .

[cheapracer]

Where i come from we would say Copy or knock off 

No, I'm building exact dimensional replica's, copies may be construed as being only similar. Replica includes items such as 62 degrees steering etc that the bike will perform as a new one in it's day did. I'll repeat again - the frame gets straightened in the computer, not modified in anyway then the jigs are built from those original Metisse dimensions.

Knock off might imply I am doing something illegal which I am not, I am even in the process of registering the design here to stop shitty copies being made. Ironically New Zealand made copy Metisse frames many years before.

[firko]

I am even in the process of registering the design here to stop shitty copies being made

That's funny.....registering a copied design in the land of the 10 buck Rolex copy. Design registration ammounts to three fifths of SFA in China. Priceless.

............oh, and thanks for the recipe, I'll whip some up this arvo to have with a cup of hot cocoa during State of Origin game tonight.

[cheapracer]

Don,t side track the guy TM he,s got a frame to build and hasn,t the time .

Oh I got a couple of things on the go for VMX trying to fill some holes - I just don't have the time to battle the dicks who want to be heard and bring you down. Look above at the "Chang Jiang wheels" comment overtone, note no mention of BMW copies of which they are or that they are genuine pre '65 hubs, just the Chinese name.

Actually, not thats it's any of your business Firkin, Jikov has been hard on me about this project but my answer to him was "when we started QVMX the main purpose was to increase the amount of riders in VMX so we had people to race against now I want to race pre '65 and I want to do the same thing - bodies on bikes! - and the only way thats going to happen is if it's affordable and fun".

I don't know WTF this about besides egotistical pricks who just have to be heard, I just want to get some bikes out there for people to race in the same class as me and it's as simple as that - if you don't like it, don't trust them, don't want to buy one fork off and mind your own business and don't consider that you know more than me about how to accomplish the end result because with the possible exception of GMC, you don't.

I have arranged hopefully for a trial frame to be in Oz mid July and the only thing I will post further on this subject is about the wheels and other VMX stuff I may come across.

If you want to tear this project apart and put it down to suit your own egos and failed projects go for your lives.

[GD66]

Lighten up, FFS. You spat it when questioned, then locked the thread down, taking your bat and ball home with you. Now it's a re-opened subject, but you can't stop with the putdowns. Do what you like, but why use this forum as a conduit for your petulance ? Better off spending the time and energy on getting the frames under way, I'd have thought.