New or old KSI Thumper?

[Marc.com]

50 horsepower....what drugs are you on?...the new KTM350 motocrosser only puts out about 40..

Anyways I actually like the Faber as a work of art .... I have my own steel tube frame based on the XL frame project but better adapted for CR250 running gear coming off the jig in New Zealand sometime in the future.

Going to call it the CSI. 

[Graeme M]

Hmmm... I can see your point Swiss, but I have to go with Bill. Why would they do it? It's hardly going to compete with any modern bike, especially for younger riders, and probably harder to get parts for than any modern counterpart. So, apart from its 'uniqueness' which may appeal to the occasional older enthusiast, what is its market? On the other hand, they had a brilliant opportunity to rekindle the flavour of the original and market it squarely at the Pre 78 or 80 brigade. unless it really is class legal for that weird 'twinshock' concept they have in the UK.

As for 50 HP XL Hondas, well yes I think they can be made pretty strong can't they? Didn't Bill Bell get obscene amounts of power out of them? Tho I think they had to go well over 400cc for that...

[Swiss]

Maybe I do and so do others.  Here is a dyno run for you to check out.  Not the highest run but representative of what can be built.

Swiss



My trailbike runs the same spec engine with a 3mm bigger carb and better pipe.  Makes it a lot of fun! 

Bell got some good power from them but the real power came with the 2790 Megacycle cam and bigger/better pipes, which were basically after Bell went to Yamaha with his son Mike.  Jerry Branch was doing some of Bells heads and they were super for flow.  As I mentioned in another post Powerhouse Products did some 403cc bikes with 44mm Mikunis, the 2790 cam and big valves/ports that would outpull a Z1 Kawasaki on the street through the 1/8th mile. 

[Swiss]

Graeme,

You know that you can buy a "Vintage" C&J XL350 and rebuild a Bell Replica or you can buy a brand new C&J (he is back in business on a limited and expensive basis), or in England and possibly in AU they are building "Custom" C&J Replica frames that look identical to the old frames!  Why is because there is some demand for them and they can make a living doing it.  Will there be a demand for the "NEW" KSI frames?  Probably a few and at Dick's age I don't think that he and friend are planning on making a retirement career out of it!  These are "modernized" versions of the old bikes.  Few of the old Fox Forks or the other trick fork sets out there so might as well either adapt something slightly newer or play with the standard 36mm forks of "The Day"...  I like the newer suspension and don't have problems adapting it for my riding, which does not include Vintage racing as I could only do that a couple of times a year and even then traveling 300-500 miles to do it.  I trail ride the woods and ride the open desert so am not class limited.  Just run what I build and enjoy it! 
Would enjoy an HL replica, but would put a 70hp TT686 engine in it rather than the older TT500 engine. Oh, and disk brakes!  Want to see some Vintage Disk Brakes?  O will add a photo of a Vintage dirt bike with disk brakes that I saw last week at the races.  Yes, I also have the dyno charts for 70+hp 686cc Yamaha engines.  Helped a friend tune his Yamaha roadracer many years ago and I built my Street Play bike with the same specs, but a little bigger carbs and stuck it into a 1989 Honda Hawk frame for the street.  Was tempted to build another one with dirt suspension but we can only do so many projects and I already have too many!  HA!HA!



Forks are probably too modern for Vintage class!  But they are the classic Fox Forks.  In fact the Curnutts would have more than 4" of travel also.  Neat bike to watch out on the track since I had a Norton P-11 back in '68 that I loved riding the desert with!

Personally, I don't care that much for the C&J Hondas, as I stated.  I liked the old KSI and corresponded with Allen in the Day but didn't buy one.  I had already built my own before he built his.   But I like the improvements that they have made with the new KSI bike.  Anyone could build Replica Frames!

Swiss

[Marc.com]

You know that you can buy a "Vintage" C&J XL350 and rebuild a Bell Replica or you can buy a brand new C&J (he is back in business on a limited and expensive basis),

Yeah actually C&J are back in business on a hugely expensive basis as I found out to my cost. I got ripped off along with quite a few others when C&J disappeared with our cash and no frames. Thieving bastards who I wouldn't have anything to do with unless it was in court.

[vmx42]

I'm not offended by the bike at all. It is no different to when Ducati released their last MHR & Paul Smart bikes - they paid homage to the original, but with a modern interpretation. Hats of to Faber for looking to the future instead of just rehashing the same product that they have done for 50 years. It is obvious from the other bikes in the image, that they are not deserting VMX in anyway… but this bike could spur a lot of interest.

Does that mean you should front up at a VMX race with it… well no.  But as a design exercise it looks bloody fantastic.

It would be interesting to hear the design rationale behind the bike. If they were just wanting to create some internet chatter then I reckon it will succeed big time.
VMX42








…and yes they are missing out on significant sales by not producing true replicas of the KSI Moates Honda.

[Graeme M]

Swiss, I don't disagree with the notion of building bikes to suit a particular need. Your XL is a great example of the home-built special and it works very well for your intended use. And just in their own right any exercise such as the HL idea you describe are genuinely interesting.

But vintage MX is a specific thing: it's racing - and thereby celebrating - yesteryear's technology and competitive spirit.

That's why I don't understand the KSI. Taken as a modernised expression of an old idea, yes it's really trick and very neat. But where does it fit in the world? if it's meant to venerate the original KSI and serve duty in VMX racing (which presumably it is meant to going by the brakes) then it's not faithful to the original in any way, and nor does it fit into recognised vintage classes other than the European interpretation of Twin Shock.

Which in my view is really inot vintage MX.

[JohnnyO]

That faber would slot straight into the UK twinshock class just like the S1 maico's and modified CR480's so i'd reckon there is a market for it... Like it or not 

[Marc.com]

It is no different to when Ducati released their last MHR & Paul Smart bikes - they paid homage to the original,(quote)

I think it is totally different, the Ducati Paul Smart Rep is 2006 modern motorcycle with styling with a nod to the 70s. The Faber is like stuffing a round case 750 motor in a 1098 frame.

[vmx42]

It is no different to when Ducati released their last MHR & Paul Smart bikes - they paid homage to the original,(quote)

I think it is totally different, the Ducati Paul Smart Rep is 2006 modern motorcycle with styling with a nod to the 70s. The Faber is like stuffing a round case 750 motor in a 1098 frame.

Hey Marc,
You can argue that position if you wish, but I reckon it is more about semantics than fact. The Ducati reference was purely an example and not an absolute comparison. I like it, you don't - the world keeps spinning… 

Just remember that when anybody creates or designs anything there are always those that will like it and those that won't. This thing looks like one mans interpretation on a supposedly modern KSI - if you gave the same brief to 10 different designers, you would get 10 different results. It's a striking bike and certainly not for everybody, but then again I would doubt they would expect it to be. It is no different from the current trend to make Service Honda/Kawasaki 2 strokes - old engines in modern chassis…

Of course all of this is moot - as I would be very surprised if the thing made it into any sort of production [but good luck to them if it does].
Catch ya,
VMX42

[Swiss]

Personally, I kind of prefer this Retro version for a road bike!!

Swiss

[Marc.com]

Personally, I kind of prefer this Retro version for a road bike!!
Swiss

I concur fully, probably the best looking motorcycle in the world...... much tastier than the Paul Smart, but then again I paid $1200 for my rashed PSR so I have some room to work on how it looks.

Also price is not silly when compared to Harley or top of the line Ducati.

[firko]

wait till Ficko comes around from his alcohol fueled coma.....the big hotrodder himself will be choking on his vegemite toast.

Sorry John....I like it. Nah, I love it! What a cool trail bike or with a set of motard wheels it'd be ultimate unit for a cruise down to La Scala for a Sunday morning Capuccino and blueberry muffin. Like everyone else though, I can't see there being much of a market for it in the GFC deadened UK or US market. Methinks Faber would have been better off putting their chassis making expertise into replicating the original KSI.

Insert Quote
50 horsepower....what drugs are you on?...the new KTM350 motocrosser only puts out about 40....even with methonol and a gazillion dollars chucked at it it would go bang very quickly....maybe you know something the rest of the worlds bike engine builders dont?...

My stock bore and stroke XL350 sideport engine in my old Champion dynoed at 43.6 HP back in 1990 and it was as reliable as a margarita blender. The engine was very basic, with Venolia 12.5:1 piston, Carillo rod a Megacycle flat track grind roller cam, lightened rockers and some pretty nice head work. The only problem I ever had with it were ignition and transmission breakages. Replacing the Bultaco rear wheel with a DT1 Yamaha cush drive rear hub eventally solved the transmission woes. Swiss's dyno sheet backs my claim .

You know that you can buy a "Vintage" C&J XL350 and rebuild a Bell Replica or you can buy a brand new C&J (he is back in business on a limited and expensive basis),

Yeah actually C&J are back in business on a hugely expensive basis as I found out to my cost. I got ripped off along with quite a few others when C&J disappeared with our cash and no frames. Thieving bastards who I wouldn't have anything to do with unless it was in court

Jeff Cole is back making C&J frames and ain't they pretty? Here's one to suit an XR500 motor. I'd own one of these in a heartbeat.

[VMX247]

Hijack-Yep, somedays the Poms just got it all right !!Thanks dfisher !

[Swiss]

When I went to the Isle of Man in 2009 I got to see the Norton Factory Display which had the 961 and several of the older race bikes.  After the races I went back to England and stopped to visit with a Pigeon raising buddy of mine who lives in Darby, which is just a stone's throw from the racetrack where Norton now has their headquarters.  I didn't learn until the last day that I was visiting that my friends sons had grown up with the Norton Factory owners sons and he knew him well and could have gotten me into the shops if we had had some time to work it out!!!  I really love the Carbon version!!!  Terrific bike!

Still like the new KSI, but I would have a practical use for it, simply riding in the mountains and desert without worry about class restrictions.  I fully understand your problems with the limitations of it not being class legal for racing.  Of course they have a racing class in England that it fits so they are building what works for them.

Swiss

I really like the Cheney Norton from Texas also.  Very clean build!  Been watching it for over a year through the shop build!  Reminds me of my P-11 but I would prefer dual pipes with one per side scrambler style and the dual carbs.