Author Topic: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO  (Read 101652 times)

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firko

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2011, 10:45:43 PM »
Good research JC....It seems Bimbo wasn't telling us a fib....we just underestimated just how trick the bike might be and the circumstances surrounding it. The mystery now is to unravel just who made the frame. Doug Schwerma was operating at Champion Frames by 1973 so it's a possibility that he might have made it but if that's the case, why would CMS make the claim in their press release unless it was true?? You can bet that Schwerma would have had something to say if CMS were making false claims. I'll do some digging tomorrow and see what I can find........I love a good mystery ;D.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 11:18:24 PM by firko »

Offline Stan S

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2011, 10:53:31 PM »
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 10:56:36 PM by Stan S »

Offline GMC

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2011, 10:57:16 PM »
I did hear that some of the early CMS frames cracked a lot.
The 7th generation frame that I copied had been pretty much sorted. The original had only a small crack in the headtube gussets, the rest of it stood the test of time pretty good.

According to our weigh in thread a Mk 8 frame weighs in at 12 kg and the CMS comes in at just on 10kg so that’s a 2kg (about 4Lb) saving. It would take a hell of a lot to scrub off another 5.5Kg (11Lbs)

This is the best I can enhance the CMS Bultaco frame picture, besides the rear end being different to what Jim used is their any distinguishing features that may stand out from the standard Bultaco frame?

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Offline jerry

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2011, 08:35:39 AM »
Thanks Stanley great reading. Confirms the tyre brand (have to chase a Barum down somewhere!) By the way do you have a son in Tasmania? Cheers Jerry

firko

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2011, 09:39:21 AM »
Geoff...Do you produce a CMS replica Bultaco as well as the CZ unit? Are they essentially the same frame?

Offline Stan S

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2011, 09:40:10 AM »
Thanks Stanley great reading. Confirms the tyre brand (have to chase a Barum down somewhere!) By the way do you have a son in Tasmania? Cheers Jerry

Yes I do, in Hobart, how did you know?

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Offline Marc.com

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2011, 10:34:34 AM »
Geoff...Do you produce a CMS replica Bultaco as well as the CZ unit? Are they essentially the same frame?

Or a GMC replica TM400 Geoff, then we would be talking power and handling.  ::)
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Offline GMC

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2011, 10:50:55 AM »
So many projects, so little time.
Nothing planned at the moment, Bulty or TM

The CMS bulty engine cradle looks the same as the CZ version, the sub frame looks a bit different and obvisuosly the engine mounts will be different.
I have seen a CMS-XL version over here as well.

I was in contact with a guy many years ago that had a CMS Bulty frame in the states, but I can’t find the photo’s he sent me now.
He would probably be worth a chat with as I'm sure he spent some time with Jimbo at Diamond Dons or somewhere.

From another contact from many years back….

Besides the Cz one there is also aBultaco one which I think were the first frames they made. 
The CMS guys name was Charley Cole.  His wife was Mary, and the helper was some guy named Shosgoffenhouser or something like that. (no joke) and that's the CMS. 
The Cz shop I worked at was only in business from 1969 to 75 so I don't know about all the different editions
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Offline jerry

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2011, 10:59:47 AM »
Stan totally by chance I was hunting some info on another forum and I came across a young bloke in Hobart who was talking about his "old man's" Bultaco on the cover of VMX. Hope he's not in strife! Cheers Jerry

Offline Xed-up

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2011, 11:11:17 AM »
   Geoff the only main difference's i can see and this is talking MK5 (which look identical to MK6) is the top shock mount on the bully steps up 30 odd mil putting the bolt hole in line with the flat seatbase tube, and the rest of the tubing looks thinner (cro-mo?) mk5's weigh in at 12kg also, and 3kg for the swingarm , Good luck with the build jerry i'am also going along the line's of jim's bike ,have a pic or two of it (nothing close) if i can find them and corner the young bloke to put them up i will . p.s  i wasnt sure of the dc opaque's ,not seeing any and went with the white, let us know how they look .cheers

Offline JC

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2011, 11:12:31 AM »
Mark, Doug Schwerma was operating as "Cycle Services" prior to "Champion". The article I have is from June 71 Motorcycle World. His cro-mo Bul frames are visually identical to std pursang frames of the era (as was Pomeroy's 73GP bike) but were said to have steeper rake (typical of Schwerma frames).


The 1st I ever heard of CMS products was a Dirt Bike ad in Nov 74 for CZ frames - long after that 73 GP. Pomeroy's later factory Bul (which by then featured forward mounted shocks) featured in Dec 74 DB had a frame visually diff  to the CMS pursang frame - tho one has to say, there are similarities.

Geoff, the diff  between the CMS frame  & the 73GP bike, apart from the FMS rear end, is in the construction of the rear subframe. The seat rails on the CMS sub-frame are flat & continue on to the rear loop (where there is an upward kink behind the top shock mounts), w the rear upright tubes butting up against them.

Pursang frames of the era (c72-75) are distinctive in that the seat rails are short & butt up to the rear uprights which continue up above them then bend horizontal to form the top shock mounts & have a smaller tube rear loop inserted into them, which then kinks up again for the mudguard. The rear of the pursang seat is cut-away for the raised shock mounts (if that all makes sense - it should if you look at a pursang frame).

Pomeroys 73GP frame was just like the std pursang frames. Other pics of Poweroy's frames from the era (now at Hugh's Bultaco) also show them visually the same as mk5-8 prod'n pursang frames.

However, does anyone know the beginnings of CMS Products? (Edit, I see Geoff' posted above while I was typing)

I'm beginning to wonder if there's a link between CMS & Schwerma/Cycle Services/Champion. I have a pic of what is said to be a late 74 Champion-framed Pursang & it appears all-but identical to the CMS frame in the ad Geoff posted above. Not only that, but the 76 125 prod'n pursang frame is also all-but identical to both, except for diff gussets on the swingarm.

Was Charlie Cole formerly an employee of Schwerma, or vice versa? Or were they mates? Or did one produce the other's frames at some stage?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:03:03 PM by JC »

firko

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2011, 12:03:03 PM »
Quote
The 1st I ever heard of CMS products was a Dirt Bike ad in Nov 74 for CZ frames - long after that 73 GP
John I was basing my theory on CMS's own claim that Pomeroy was using a CMS frame when he won the Spanish GP (GMC's post, page 1 of this thread). I can't imagine them claiming Bimbos use of their frame if it wasn't true. The press release was published only a year after the race, when the win was still fresh in everyones mind. I doubt very much that Doug Schwerma and Charlie Cole had anything to do with each others businesses. I do wonder though if Charlie was related to Jeff Cole the founder of C&J? That'd be a more logical connection as C&J were known to have produced a number of covert works frames for a number of manufacturers.

Offline JC

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2011, 12:59:08 PM »
No offense Mark, I wasn't taking a shot at you, just following up yr post.

To my knowledge, Pomeroy never claimed he used a CMS frame. The way I read it is that CMS claimed that, which was "news" to Dirt Rider mag. Pomeroy only said that he used a US-made cro-mo frame.

The possibility of a connection between Schwerma & Charley Cole stems from the uncanny similarity between the late 74 CMS & Champion pursang FMS frames. As far as I can tell from the pics I have they're identical.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:31:56 PM by JC »

SAABCOMBI

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2011, 01:09:13 PM »
The spanish new how to build a work of Art. Beautiful looking machine, Jim was a true champion and love vintage racing, its sad that he is not around, but his spirit lives on.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:10:47 PM by Jawa Race Team »

Offline GMC

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Re: POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2011, 02:12:04 PM »
The 1st I ever heard of CMS products was a Dirt Bike ad in Nov 74 for CZ frames - long after that 73 GP. Pomeroy's later factory Bul (which by then featured forward mounted shocks) featured in Dec 74 DB had a frame visually diff  to the CMS pursang frame - tho one has to say, there are similarities.
 

I remember going through a lot of adds many years back looking for info on CMS.
We found a few adds for CMS, I’m sure some were from 73?? but that Dec 74 add was the first with a picture.

It could be that CMS claimed that Jim used their frame in the add as nobody realized because it was so close to stock.



Geoff, the diff  between the CMS frame  & the 73GP bike, apart from the FMS rear end, is in the construction of the rear subframe. The seat rails on the CMS sub-frame are flat & continue on to the rear loop (where there is an upward kink behind the top shock mounts), w the rear upright tubes butting up against them.


So can anyone spot those differences in any close ups of Jims GP bike?
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