POMEROYS RACE WINNING BULTACO

[JC]

No offense taken Jeff. You made a very pertinent point - there's no hard evidence specific to that 73GP bike.

Its quite logical to contact Ron P but I don't have a contact.

I've enjoyed the ride myself. As you said, its the forum at its best!

[GMC]

I’ve still got a bet each way.
It’s been an interesting discussion.

So who built the frame for JP's Spanish Gp bike?  We've established a definite connection between Schwerma & Bul in MX (not just short track) circa 71. We have what appears to be a factory built cro-mo frame from early 73 w boxed-in pivot area long before CMS's evidence for it. We DON'T see CMS splashing the claim they made JPs frame thro all their ads when it would have foolish business sense NOT to milk it for all its worth (like Bultaco did) if it were true. But we do have JP claiming his frame was US made.
 

I find it interesting that on one hand we apparently have Jim claiming to have used a US built Cro-mo frame and a company that claims to have made it but you want to believe that it must have been some one else that made it. Small companies can’t always afford advertising, they apparantly employed a sales rep which may have worked better for them in Cal. Maybe if they did advertise more they might have been around longer
It may have been poor business sense not to make more claims of the win, but then the company did fold in 75.
Although I think that was probably more from the Japs getting themselves sorted and the aftermarket frame fad was dying off as the stock frames weren’t so bad.

From contacts I have heard from, CMS were around in 72.
The boxed in pivot as you call it was used as far back as the CZ twin ports, the CMS frame extended the gussets down and included the footpeg mounts into the same gusset, I haven’t noticed any other manufacturer to do that.

I'm inclined to think that neither Schwerma nor CMS made his 73GP frame(s), but rather, the Barcelona factory did.

I think that’s possible too but then you have to wonder why Jim made the claim about a US frame.

I just can't believe that Jim had a USA built frame in his carry on luggage wnen he hopped on the plane to Spain. Cheers Jerry

Actually, those were the days when you could do that.
I have a mate that brought a complete KX 250 home form the US in his luggage in the early 90’s

Maybe some misunderstanding on the behalf of an over enthusiastic CMS employee. The deals done, "no more such claims and nothing further will be said".
 

Yes, maybe even a misunderstanding on behalf of the journo.

[GMC]

Another stand out part of the frames would be the head tube.
CMS used a larger straight tube to accept tapered rollers.
Although again, they may not have done this with the early frames?



This would be hard to spot behind the number plate in an action shot


Does any body remember Len Williamson racing his CZ-CMS back in the day? I believe in NSW.

[JC]

I’ve still got a bet each way.

 

Yes, me too.

I find it interesting that on one hand we apparently have Jim claiming to have used a US built Cro-mo frame and a company that claims to have made it but you want to believe that it must have been some one else that made it

Geoff, I could equally counter that you want to believe that CMS made it - w'out hard evidence. We have claims, but not hard evidence. Whereas we do have photo evidence that Tom Rapp used a Schwerma MX frame in 71. (That doesn't by any means prove JP used one of his in 73, but it is a link between Bul & Schwerma prior to 73, just as Schwerma claimed.)

What I'm looking for is objective verifiable evidence.

Thats all I'm getting at - looking for evidence to support or refute the claims. I like to be a good deal more objective than just accepting claims. If there's evidence to support the claim that CMS made it - end of story. Until then, its still up in the air for me. Anybody can make claims, & I'm not that gullible that I accept every unsubstantiated one. (Nobody does)

Earlier in the thread I said "I'm inclining to think CMS made the frame", but further evidence seems to indicate otherwise.

And it doesn't matter a lot anyway, its just a talking point really. I don't think there's much doubt JP used a lightweight frame of some kind tho.

Another stand out part of the frames would be the head tube.
CMS used a larger straight tube to accept tapered rollers

I noticed that yesterday too, when I was posting the pics, & I initially tho't it was evidence of B100248 being a CMS frame & was all set to say so. But then I also noticed that is exactly the style headtube & steering stop used by the factory in 72-73 (tho they didn't use tapered rollers). My B107 frame is the same. The later Bul frames have flared ends to the headtube but the early ones don't. So that shot that down for me. The Bul serial # & factory craftsmanship on that frame says a lot for me, but of course it doesn't prove it was JPs frame at the start of the season.

[jerry]

Spoke to Firko this morning. He has been ringing Ron but hasn't been able to catch him yet. Will try again on Monday when he gets back from his Blues weekend. As well as asking him about the frame I've asked to try and find out any "special" features of the bike. Untill then......................

[jerry]

Thanks JC I noticed the Amal. Peter Schoene also confirmed Amal most likely. Cheers Jerry

[JC]

Finally figured out where to find the correct URL so I can actually show the pics, not just the links, so FWIW I've redone my earlier posts in the thread to make it easier viewing


Heres a few more:

From Dec 74 Modern Cycle:
"A new entry..."


And the Bandito-engined Optaco JP was said to have raced at some stage:


And here's the bike that was claimed to be: "CHAMPION BULTACO 250: MX frame made in 74"
But the evidence it seems indicates otherwise, ie a CMS

[mx250]

Looks a 'Good Thing' doesn't it.

Any one up for a replica  .

[Hoony]

Looks a 'Good Thing' doesn't it.

Any one up for a replica  .

it's a  Bloody ugly sucker i reckon.

[mx250]

Apparently it was heavier than standard .

But hey, it looks as trick as 

[HuskyPete]

If Ron turns up at Diamond Don's, with a bit of liquid lubrication to loosen him up, we may find out some more.

[JC]

So here's a few of the diff versions in print, in chronological order as published - all attributed to JP:

Quote 1  "We got there in Spain about a week & a half before the GP  & went to the factory. My bikes werent finished. They werent done! I was getting so nervous & sick cos I couldn't believe it. My bikes werent finished. Some english riders Malcolm Davis & Vic Allan & some other dudes, were there at the factory... & helped get the bikes done. Fri a'noon about 1pm we finished & the practise started at 4pm. So we got the bikes done, just took them straight to the track...  (How was your bike?) ... It was really similar. [ie to std pursang] The diff I felt was the handling. It was lighter & it just changed a lot the handling. It was [emphasis his] harder to ride cos it had more power & it was lighter... I had to dig up some new betors that worked. Its a smaller shock & ea shock is a pound lighter than a std shock".    (DB Nov73, same issue they had Superbowl 2 report)

Interview no doubt conducted when JP was in US in the 6wk mid-season break after 7th GP. Its the closest record I've found to the actual GP in Apr 73, & apart from the shocks he didnt seem to know much about the bike & why it was lighter!


Quote 2  "I went to Spain for about 2wks first [when he 1st arrived in Europe at beginning of 73], picked up 2 standard bikes to use in Feb & Mar in [pre-season] races in Belgium... I got there [Spain, later in Mar/Apr] about 3 days before the race to see my bikes & see if they were OK & they werent even finished. I was worried but they finished the bikes about 2hrs before practice started the day before the race. (How special were the GP Buls?) They werent too special compared to the Suzukis & Maicos & everything. (Did the factory build it the way you wanted it?) I didnt know how I wanted it. I'm used to riding a std bike & thats what I wanted. About all it had was a cro-mo frame made in the states. Its not very good. Its made too light & it cracks everywhere. The Bul factory frame is better-handling cos it feels like its stronger & doesnt flex as much, but that day I was patriotic & I said, OK, I'll use everything American today"    (Cycle Illustrated Jul74; Interview conducted probably by Terry Pratt "in late 73", 8-9mths after the GP)

Quote 3  "Pomeroy's pursang was embarrassingly stock. The only change had been a cro-mo frame w stock geometry & some one-off betor shocks that had been built for this race. Unfortunately the guy at the Betor factory who built them forgot how he did it or lost the design or something cos they were unable to duplicate the rear suspension for the rest of the season"   (CI Jul 74 by John Huetter)

Quote 4  " 'Just before the race I collected my bike in a crate from the old factory... it had to be assembled & prepared to race'. It took Jim until Fri a'noon before the GP to get the 250 pursang together. He went straight from the factory to the track for practice around 4pm. With a brand new & unproven bike he didn't break any record initially but was reportedly the fastest Bul rider out there... 'I was actually a privateer when I won that 1st race'... Jim had started the 73 season on a production 250 Bultaco Pursang... Modified bikes would take their place the following season; however Jim never equalled the results which he achieved on true prod'n machinery [in 73]. '1974 was a bigger change year for me than 73... Whatever I wanted from the factory, I got'."   (VMX#3, c2000.) 

ie The story is significantly diff years later.


Quote 5  "Three days before the Spanish GP, I took a Pursang out of the crate, assembled it & took it to my 1st GP... I had no mechanics at the time, only a support program thro the University Bultaco dealership in Seattle. I was not a good mechanic, but a new bike out of the crate was best for me. I needed nothing more to boost my confidence"   (The Pursang Story, published 2003)

 Really Jim, you took a bike out of the crate, at the factory!! There were none that weren't already crated? The 'standard pursang' story it seems only surfaced 27yrs after the event.

Quote 6  "With help from a Bultaco dealership I headed off to race in the MX WC in 73. Still riding basically a privateer Bultaco Pursang I won my debout round"  (Classic Bultaco MX M'cycles, pub 2006

My hunch is that the real story is the 1st one (in DB), closest to the event.

Here's a few other claims in print, all attributed to JP, that weren't accurate:

"My time was set for pole pos'n"  (He was 2nd; Andersson was on pole)

"At the 3rd GP in Belgium the Yamaha monoshock appeared... the bike made everyones imagination run wild w Hakan Andersson riding. We changed our bike just weeks after that"  (He was still using standard suspension in the US after the 7th GP & in the 8th GP after the 6wk mid-season break)

"I'd won the 250 US championship... by 72"  (He came 5th in 72 & never won a US championship AFAIK)  Edit: He did reportedly win a US 250 Cup in 71 or 72, whatever that is)

"Jim Pomeroy won the 1st ever indoorMX, the Superbowl at the LA Coliseum"  (Tripes did; JP doesn't feature in the results; he came 2nd at the 2nd Superbowl)

"Jim never aqualled the results he achieved [in 73]".  (No, he bettered them in 76 coming 4th in world; he came 7th in 73)

My point is not to denigrate JP - he was & still is one of my most pre-eminent stars whom I hold w the highest esteem - he may have been mis-quoted. (My hunch is that JP just wasn't a fine-details man.) My point is that you can't believe everything in print. For me, the jury's still out on claims that are unsubstantiated. Just like in court, if we want to get to the bottom of a story we need evidence.

Otherwise all we have is what VMX42 rightly calls:

more speculation and assumption than factual

If I took all claims at face value I'd be still believing there are 60 Alrons out there somewhere!

[JC]

Case in point - Schwerma's claims in Jul 71 Motorcycle World on his pursang & bandito frames:

"Doug started the Bultaco project a scant 3wks before last years TransAMA MX series. A concentrated 21 day effort saw the frames thro conception, design & construction stages. By the 1st event Bultaco team riders had prototype frames on the starting line. The early frames were brazed together & were not w'out their problems but the terrific hammering of international competition proved to be an ideal test ground for the experimental versions. 'We got a years worth of learning in 6wks', Doug says. Now all the frames & s'arms are heli-arced together but the design remains about the same."

For me, that was in the "may-or-may-not be true" category, until I found photo evidence of Tom Rapp riding a Schwerma-framed M68 in 71.

The CMS connection is still in the "may-or-may-not be true" category for me, until we get conclusive evidence of the link.

Small companies can’t always afford advertising

I didn't mean running special ads announcing they made JPs frame, Geoff. I just meant including a line in the ads they did run, which would hardly have cost a few $ more.

[GMC]

And here's the bike that was claimed to be: "CHAMPION BULTACO 250: MX frame made in 74"
But the evidence it seems indicates otherwise, ie a CMS

That looks everybit a CMS to me judging by the look of the swingarm pivot, the length of the head gusset coming down the front tube and the swingarm gussets.
Tried to look closer at the snail cams but I can't zoom in clearly with that size image
Where was it quoted as being a Champion? And when, back in the day or recently?
Show me another Champion frame that looks similar and I will reconsider my view.

[GMC]

I didn't mean running special ads announcing they made JPs frame, Geoff. I just meant including a line in the ads they did run, which would hardly have cost a few $ more.

Just looking at it from the other side of the fence.

My pipes have been on a couple of dozen title winning bikes over the years but I haven’t made a big deal of it.
# To be sure that it was my pipe as some guys swap bikes and parts so much
# I can sell quicker than I can build, so by pushing things more just causes more grief if I can’t supply.

Possibly like CMS, I will only regret this when work slows down and its too late to build the momentum again.



I also wonder if Bultaco may have been experimenting with different frames and parts and it was by chance that Jim used a US built frame, he may not have known it’s source and CMS may not have been aware initially it was theirs until later in the game as Bultaco wouldn’t have wanted to share credit.

Don’t know about this Shwerma thing you keep mentioning.
He has made no claim to Jims frame and you haven’t shown that he has made any frame so close to stock that it’s hard to tell the difference, which seems to be the case for Jims bike.

I’m running with …
# 50 %      Jim used a CMS frame
# 40 %      Jim used a special Bultaco frame
# 10%      Someone has built a time machine and changed history as we know it.