Author Topic: Evo ultimate class  (Read 31240 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LWC82PE

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 6006
    • View Profile
    • PE motorcycles & SuzukiTS.com
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2009, 12:57:35 am »
 Corte & Cosso with rebound adjusters. Available Pre 85?

Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

Offline marshallmech

  • A-Grade
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2009, 12:45:53 pm »
Ok lets get one thing clear there seems to be a few people who think that if they have discussed an idea with a Viper Committee
member its going to happen and that they can come on this forum and make assumptions about it going ahead well I have news for these people who have no  authority  to inform people of what they think is going to happen in Viper keep your nose out of it.
The idea for this class has been mentioned but has not been disscussed at Viper Committe level.And if and when it is it will be announced
by the Viper Committee and no body else!
Myself and another committe member are a bit pissed about this and hope it wont happen again.

Andy Viper #70
Honda CR125 RB
Honda CR125RC
Honda CR125RA
Honda CR250RZ
Honda Z50A

Offline Nathan S

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 7275
  • HEAVEN #818
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2009, 06:04:23 pm »
I apologise in advance for the long, dry post.

Quote from: Me
Externally adjustable shocks, PD valves, fat bars etc are all currently legal.
Fair enough it you don't want them to be legal, but that would be changing the rules, which is a whole 'nother ball game.

I am reading the GCR's isnt everyone? end

and I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what rule book it is that everyone else was reading or where in the GCR's its gives exception to " all components will be of the period (that) the machine was manufacrued" & " modifications using later equipment are not allowed"

http://www.ma.org.au/AM/Template.cfm?Section=General_competition_rules&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentFileID=41129

I've been quite vocal in my criticism of the wording and the formatting of the rules in the past - and plenty of people have taken personal offense to my criticism...  Plenty of other people fail to recognise the difference between criticism of the words/formatting and a desire to actually change the rules.

One of the main failings of the current wording of the rules, is that they do not include either of these statements:
"No modifications are allowed, except for the following freedoms..." or; "All modifications are allowed, but with the following restrictions...".
Instead, what we have is a set of rules that specifically allow some things, and specifically prohibit some other things - this means that you have no 'fall-back' position on any issues/components that are not specifically discussed in the rules.
The part you've quoted appears to be an attempt to do this, but if you interpret it 100% literally, then everyone's bikes are illegal, unless they're running tyres, chains, grips etc that were manufacturered in the era.

That being the case, everything that's not specifically addressed by the rules is open to interpretation. Of course, "interpretation" will only really matter when you're involved in a protest (either as a protester or a protestee) and have to argue your case to the Stewards...
Personally, for every modification I make to any of my bikes, I imagine myself in a situation where I'm being protested, and I have to prove to a cynical steward that I'm not a cheat - this is a part of the reason why my bikes are more standard than most. I'm not saying that anyone with a more modified bike is cheating, just that there are plenty of things that I might get away with, but wouldn't bet the house on it.

Agh... I'm rambling... What it comes down to, is that the vague bits of rules can be interpreted a lot of different ways. Much like in civil courts, the difference between sinking and swimming will come down to a mix of the following factors:
a) The reasonableness of your interpretation of the rules.
b) Precedent.
c) Whether it makes a difference.
d) This is Chewbacca*.

So, getting to the point:
1. Rear shocks.

a) Reasonable Interpretation: Rear shocks are only discussed in GCR 18.5.0.8. The implication of 18.5.0.8 is clearly the replacement shock absorbers are allowed (if the rule had intended to limit people to original fitment shocks, then this entire rule would never have existed. Instead it would simply say "Rear shock absorbers must remain as originally fitted to the machine in question".
The fact that the rules specify some restrictions on replacement shock absorbers, means that any replacement shock absorber meeting those restrictions must be legal.

b) Precedent: Many, many bikes have passed scrutiny and raced without protest at VMX meetings, including National title meetings. Adjuster knobs on twin shock bikes are clearly visible, so there's no question that it was simply 'missed' by every scrutineer and every other rider...

c) Whether it makes a difference: Ultimately, the external dampening adjustment is a tool to simplify tuning and offers no direct performance benefit compared to a properly tuned non-adjustable shock.

2. Fat bars.
a) Reasonable Interpretation: Handlebars are a 'consumable' item on a MX bike - they are not a "major component" as (un)defined in 18.6.0.2. They are not mentioned at all in the Classic MX rules, so are clearly not prohibited in CMX. Bars without cross-braces and bars with an OD of greater than 7/8" were both available before 1975.

b) Precedent: Many, many bikes have passed scrutiny and raced without protest at VMX meetings, including the National titles. Handlebars are clearly visible, so there's no question that it was simply 'missed' by every scrutineer and every other rider...

c) Whether it makes a difference/other stuff: These handlebars clearly provide a small improvement in performance and rider comfort, above and beyond true "era correct" parts, but CMX allows performance modifications.

3. PD / Emulator valves.
a) Reasonable Interpretation: Forks are only discussed in GCR 18.5.0.8, although they probably fall into the category of being a "major component" in 18.6.0.2. Neither of these rules prohibit internal modifications to forks. PD Valves/Emulators do not over-step any of the restrictions in 18.5.0.8.

b) Precedent: Many bike have been raced with these components fitted, without consequence. While they are virtually impossible for a scrutineer to identify at a race meeting, there is published information that states that particular bikes have raced at National Championship level with them fitted, again without consequence.

c) Whether it makes a difference/other stuff: These components clearly offer a performance advantage, however CMX allows performance modifications.
It is also extremely difficult to identify these components without time consuming disassembly at events, making "illegal PD Valves" impossible to enforce at scrutiny.
Shim-stack style suspension valves have been around since pre-75 (at least) so they could have been made in the pre-75 era (ie: The technology existed then, even if nbody was using it).

[/bush lawyer]

I can see the counter-arguments for all of the points (particularly the PD Valve stuff), but are they strong enough to sustain a protest successfully?
Personally, I hate the look of fat bars on old bikes (IMHO, they're tolerable on Evo and newer bikes, but are a crime against good taste on the older stuff), and if iy was up to me, they'd be illegal in VMX - but that's different to saying that they are currently illegal.


*This is a SouthPark reference. Short version is that sometimes you can pull out apparently irrelevant info and use it to support your case (or damage someone else's argument). I'm sure it can be found on You Tube or similar if you care.


« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 06:34:10 pm by Nathan S »
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline Nathan S

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 7275
  • HEAVEN #818
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2009, 06:06:13 pm »
Oh, and 18.5.0.8g prohibits the Dutch-type bikes that convert air-cooled, drum braked, linkaged bikes into twin shock bikes.
It says:
g) Rear shock absorbers shall be in the
original position, using the original
mounting points,

I know that this doesn't cover the "CR480 motor in a CR250RZ" scenario, though.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline LWC82PE

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 6006
    • View Profile
    • PE motorcycles & SuzukiTS.com
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2009, 06:29:11 pm »
Everyone knows you can currently use any rear shocks, but there are some people who actually want to have their bikes with period correct components and be within the sprirt of the era and not recreate history and just want to know what types of shocks were available when. Anyone who thinks the latest 2009 shocks on any pre 85 and older bike is within the sprirt of the era is kidding them selves, but to some the spirit of the era does not matter, which is OK for them, they might not care if their bike is within the sprirt of the era and all they have to do is follow the rules and running modern shocks is not breaking the rules so that is alright.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 06:43:50 pm by LWC82PE »
Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

Offline motomaniac

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2448
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2009, 07:25:47 pm »
 "everything that's not specifically addressed by the rules is open to interpretation"

so if thats the case WHAT DOES18.7.14.4

"modifications using later equipment are not allowed"

and 18.7.14.5

"All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured "
 LEAVE OUT




Offline motomaniac

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2448
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2009, 07:42:22 pm »
What do adjusters have to do with the Evo issues. Do adjusters make a bike go faster ? All they do is giving you a bigger window . And more often than not , they are not even  adjusted correct . So are they realy better? I have deleted lots of my recent  posts ,cause its more entertaining to observe the new creation of history and professors running around in circles.  :D  Should MA realy be in need for exact history data to create cut off points , I am happy to invest the time then. This here is just cyber lobby racing , creating assumtions.

BACK PEDAL????

Shocks have gone from no adjustments to compression , compression +rebound , high and low speed compression etc because its easier to adjust those circuits externally than have to pull down a shock .External adjusters are a convenient feature to enable you to tune your suspension at the track to suit the track - for better lap times of course .ie to be more competitive .of course.Otherwise try selling non adjustable shocks to a Modern racer or team.

I didnt notice any post from the MA yet.The interest in the history was coming from  and was an exchange between interested forum members.If you know or remember better then as Paul said away you go ,inform us.Otherwise I suppose you could just stand back and lable people without adding any substance to the thread.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 07:44:02 pm by motomaniac »

Offline Nathan S

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 7275
  • HEAVEN #818
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2009, 09:49:02 pm »
"everything that's not specifically addressed by the rules is open to interpretation"

so if thats the case WHAT DOES18.7.14.4

"modifications using later equipment are not allowed"

and 18.7.14.5

"All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured "
 LEAVE OUT

Arguably, neither of them mean anything, if you really wanted to push the point - as I keep saying, the wording and the formatting of the rules is so poor that even the high court couldn't solve the dramas around Vern Grayson's Cheney Triumph.... ::)

Let's take the "All components will be of the period the machine was manufactured" line, and try to apply it literally.
This would mean that ALL parts of the bike would have to be genuine originals - including ALL of the consumables (think tyres, grips, chains, sprockets, seat covers, pistons, bearings, fuel hose, brake shoes, cables, fork seals, plastics, etc).

I'm sure you (and everyone else) will agree that this is not what the regs intend - and if we tried to enforce them strictly as written, the whole VMX thing would go to hell instantly - the only people racing would be those who have ultra-low hour original bikes, and only while they remained ultra-low hour original bikes...

So straight away, we are accepting a large degree of interpretation in how we actually apply the regs.

Taking a much more sensible approach (as happens in reality), parts basically fall into of two categories:
1. Major components - frames, engine cases, hubs, etc. These are generally the parts that define a bike's inherent performance (as opposed to set-up based performance) and identity.
2. Other components. This includes both the consumable parts (tyres, chains, grips, etc) and the non-performance related stuff like nuts and bolts, plastics etc.

For better or worse, the real world approach gives freedom to everything except the major components.

From here, there are three points of discussion (maybe more, but these are the points that scream out to me).
The first discussion point is "What exactly is a major component?". Apparently there used to be a list in The Book, but its not there now, so the topic is worth discussing.
The second is whether there should be additional/different restrictions on minor components (and why they should be there - will the changes improve the sport?).
The final one relates to replica and remanufactured parts - what makes a replica accurate enough to be accetable? How do you prove what the original looks like?

I want the rules to be black-and-white too! I'm just pointing out that the rules as they are currently written are NOT black and white, no matter how hard you wish to interpret them as such. As it stands, everyone has their opinion on what the grey areas of rules should be, but won't even consider accepting that another person might have a valid, differeing opinion. If a particular issue really matters, then an official answer is just a formal protest away...
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline VMX247

  • Megastar
  • *******
  • Posts: 8766
  • Western Australia
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2009, 09:57:13 pm »
Nathan S ,
Have you ever considered going on a state controlling body committee or running for a MA/MANSW position. ?
cheers
Best is in the West !!

Offline Nathan S

  • Superstar
  • ******
  • Posts: 7275
  • HEAVEN #818
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2009, 09:59:46 pm »
Not really.
I've wasted heaps of my life in such positions in the rally world, but you never get anywhere... And that was back when I had spare time.
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Offline bigk

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2655
  • Kangaroo Flat Victoria
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2009, 09:37:28 am »
I have managed to refrain so far, but this has been eating at me for a day or so now, and is in direct reply to Marshallmech's last post. I will respond in a similar aggressive manner of said post.
Firstly Andy, it seems it was me bigK, Michael Hughes, Bendigo Dirtbikes, VMX Re-Creations, who albeit innocently let it slip of the possible new class in another thread. I make no apologies as not once was the VIPER name or comitte mentioned or implied in my original post.  I for one am "pissed" and offended by the inferred arrogance of your post. Since when have you or the VIPER comittee been our mothers, fathers, priests, or whoever, in thinking that you can tell us what or what not we can say or do? Since when have you or the VIPER comittee, held the sole rights to freedom of speech, lateral thinking or new ideas? These bikes have existed, been talked about, shown & documented long before you or the VIPER comittee ever existed. It seems the current VIPER comittee has inherited some of the old VIPER comittee's traits. How do you know somone else isn't going to introduce a class or series, without the narrow mindedness or Draconian rules which VMX seems to have? I hope VIPER does indeed introduce such a class but by no means does the VIPER comittee own it!
K
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 11:28:56 am by bigk »

Offline worms

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2009, 10:27:33 am »
why do we need a seperate class for these bikes? is it all about trophies or are they to be primadonas, so what if they arnt competitive in pre 85, is it all so important to win the tin cup. Maybe the southern states need a rethink and bring some fun back to the sport or do you just carry on doing what the last group did, you might wind up killing the sport or just making it for elitists.

whatever the GCR's we will allways want them changed, so instead of making things clearer we will wind up with a 300 pages that will be disputed even more.

you should all cool down and ride to the current GCR's, and better still, drop point scoreing and ride for fun and then it dosnt matter so much does it!
cheers Trev

Offline motomaniac

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2448
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2009, 11:14:02 am »
I have managed to refrain so far, but this has been eating at me for a day or so now, and is in direct reply to Marshallmech's last post. I will respond in a similar aggressive manner of said post.

Was wondering myself about Andy's post.Whats the drama? I took Micheals original "slip" as maybe tongue in cheek maybe hear say.Either way it was all in good fun , amazing how things said can cause such an upset.
Discussions on topics such as Viper Teams, Two seperate Vintage Nats, a Tri State series and Pre 90 class in states that don't already have one are and have been openly tossed around on this forum without committee level discussions first taking place.No drama.

Fact is these bikes are built by guys who have the enthusiasm to do it,here and overseas.I remember seeing that twin shock CR480 that Geoff Holmes built about 10 years ago.I thought it was awesome.
He didnt race the bike that day but if the consenus was to start a class of that nature and we got maybe 10 more bikes at our meetings then I'd be or it.I'd vote for it over having to include  quads to make up the numbers like viper did a few years ago and I'd vote for it over including moderns and having to race on a track to suit them.Every Time.

BigK is gunna build a bike (hes Brad Lacket bike is awesome)GDR asked a simple question about it.Why the agro guys ???I guess it will all come out in the wash one day.

kaw440

  • Guest
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2009, 12:39:47 pm »
Why the agro exactly that what i see is that sometimes people get upset or excited confused even angry from the idea of something new different or a change because they dont find out what exactly is going on then like this post someone asks the question then the snow ball starts rolling and it starts to go down hill from there if we all took the time to ask find out how things would be done run changed etc then this type of thing would not be blown out like this all that has been asked or sugessted is a class for hybrid bikes works replica that show the very end of evolution at the factory level of twin shock bikes not to be confused with evo class in the GCR'S we currently race at why when something new is looked at straight away its wrong its not about trophys pre85 or anything outher than guys wanting to ride and or race the bike they see as awsome just like the pre70/75/78/evo and pre85 guys get from their bikes choise to have what makes you happy this is not national level stuff club racing is what its about. As has been said in some posts like the tri state you wont get the numbers this is about trying to give more options at state racing not change the rule or the evo class just one more race like pre90 that is not even in the GCR'S and it works just fine if nothing changes then i think the sport will die a slow death noe that is just hoew i see it nothing else

Offline Marc.com

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3887
    • View Profile
Re: Evo ultimate class
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2009, 05:04:32 pm »
Given that Honda doesn't have a proper 2 stroke twin shock open class bike I can understand the Honda owners desire to cheat a bit..... though I believe that the XL500s is eligible, all you have to do is whack it in a 250RZ frame.
formerly Marc.com