mugen parts

[magoo]

You're right Firko and like I said, it's been done before.

[Lozza]

I never claimed  it would be Mugen, said could do far better with a CR cylinder for a lot less money. I'm emphasizing if you wanted a 360 and got one with more torque and a better spread of torque would you really worry about aura's and history etc etc.
I'm simply trying to help this is my point.

[motomaniac]

Wouldn't need a special casting. If someone can post a pic of the bottom of a 79 250 cylinder with some dimensions would tell me all I need to know

Here we go again Loz....Nobody doubts that you would be able to build a 360 from a 250 Elsinore barrel, many others have. The point you seem to be missing is that no matter how good your cylinder is on the dyno or on the track, it will never be a Mugen. That's the whole point to this. The collectability of a part doesn't really have all that much to do with performance. It's about the aura that surrounds that parts place in motocross history. Your cylinder would undoubtedly produce the goods.....but as I said earlier,  it ain't a Mugen.

No you can't build a 360 from a 250 barrel (not functional) .Anybody who has done a 360 conversion knows that you have to machine the cases out to accomadate the bigger diameter cylinder skirts.
A mugen is actually 353cc with a 83.5 mm piston. If you put that size piston in a 250 barrel you will have no skirts left on the barrel.Also the transfer ports would be reduced to about 1/2 volume.
A few companies in the US offer big bore kits for the 250's that get it up to 290cc .Thats about the limit.

One was done down here a few years ago that was also stroked that got it over 300cc but that was alot of $.
Also Firko and Maggo are right its missing the mugen porting ,extra finning etc.And its not a Mugen.
Not investment gains there!

[shoey]

Whats so special about Mugen

if its so good, why is it , that the product is so hard to come by.

Was it sucessful , generally succesful products are readily available , or if they are real good they are copied or reproduced in some form.`

or is it another one of these products shrouded in myth and smokey mirrors.

Do tell , lets hear some of the success enjoyed by the magic Mugen product.

Come guy's enlighten us on the this mythic product or is another beat up go fast product , never quite main stream product , EG Wheelsmith , just to extract an extra buck from the "punters".

Seems to be everthing is wheelsmith this and Mugen that.

If i fit a mugen barrel and piston kit etc. Does that make my bike a Mugen. A honda with an after market Mugen barrel kit perhaps , but nothing else.

There's got to be more to it than that , surely 

[JohnnyO]

The Mugen 360 kit allowed Honda riders to ride the Open class in '78, 79 and 80.
Johnny O'mara won the 1980 125 USGP as a privateer on a Mugen bike.
They made power-up kits for Honda's through the 70's and 80's and the company was started by the son of the founder of Honda.
If you're a Honda fan Mugen stuff is as trick as it gets.. If you're not a Honda fan it means jack-shit.

[firko]

I don't recall too many sport shattering results (barring Johnny 0)from Mugen or Wheelsmith for that matter. With both the myth is bigger than their overall place in motocross history. However that myth has created a market and 'Wheelsmith this and Mugen that' the genuine stuff that is, has a strong collector market and cool factor and their place in history whether deserved or not. My point was that Lozzas 360 barrel would undoubtedly work better than a genuine Mugen barrel but it wouldn't have the cool, collectable 'aura' that the Mugen has.

[shoey]

Thanks for that , guy's

So  they are just upgrade kits , and not complete bikes.

Johnny O'mara was that good he probably would have won on a bicycle and that fit probably on foot , Im a grandstand admirer of the Honda product and actually own a couple and it still means jack shit to me just like my wheelsmith break lever and wheelsmith pipe etc , etc .

[JohnnyO]

That's right Firko, the Mugen stuff may or may not have been leaps and bounds better than standard but it was 'Trick' and seeing Mark Pace, Darryl Willoughby and Neville Cutts on complete Mugen bikes or Mugen kitted bikes that none of us could get or afford made them even more special.
Shoey they did make a complete Mugen bike with a different frame tank and engine kit but they were very expensive like Johnny O's water cooled 1980 125.

[magoo]

Mugen actually did make complete bikes, 20 of them all up and yes, they were a substantial upgrade. One reason they were so rare is that back in the day they cost a fortune. They didn't just make 360 kits for 250s, but they made performane kits for every Honda CR from about 1976 to the late 80s. They still make performance kits but mainly for Honda cars where the rich little Asian kids spend real money.

[shoey]

Thanks JohnnyO , for the info

A Full on Mugen would be really worth the freight.

But having said that , a bike with the upgrade kit is just that , a bike with an upgrade kit, not a genuine Mugen , even allowing for the price or overpriced upgrade kit.

Not worth that much more than than a very good standard unit.

[magoo]

Gee, I wonder what's motivating your opinion Shoey. You're right, a complete Mugen bike is as rare as and you'll pay for it, but still not worth anywhere near the value of a genuine works bike.

[shoey]

Do expand on your last comment Magoo

I for one would be interested .

[bigk]

Hey Brent, I hate to argue, and yes you do have to mill the cases and drill the crank webs etc,  but you CAN take a standard 250 R/RZ/RA cylinder to 360 (353cc), I know this for a fact. The head needs some machine work as well, and there are at least 2 options for pistons I know of. It's not a Mugen though.
Cheers,
K

[motomaniac]

Hey Brent, I hate to argue, and yes you do have to mill the cases and drill the crank webs etc,  but you CAN take a standard 250 R/RZ/RA cylinder to 360 (353cc), I know this for a fact. The head needs some machine work as well, and there are at least 2 options for pistons I know of. It's not a Mugen though.
Cheers,
K

Mick ,I thought that I might get a bite from you.Thats why I included the word functional.
I d like to see one on the track.The ones I knew of were using a slightly smaller than 83mm piston(oem)

[090]

What was the result with the 360 you did Michael? worth the effort?
I rode Steve Sweeneys' 360 and it was awesome. It pulled from idle and had a real strong mid range. Brian from NZ rode it at the nationals and holeshot with it.