Author Topic: trials to vmx conversion  (Read 4691 times)

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Offline asasin

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trials to vmx conversion
« on: July 01, 2011, 05:28:08 pm »
Ok all you pureists go away now! ;)  I have just got a vintage trials set up (kt 250 ) it ifs for my teenage girls ( they need to do somthing together to appreciate one another better ;D). We dont have sidecars here in nz  but they got the bug ( thanks Popeye) at the nudgee track christmass thing.
My real question is , the sidecar has suspension on the third wheel is this a good or a bad thing ? The rest i can modify to the pictures etc.
 They will probably do some trail rides on it and maybe allowed to do the odd demo laps at vmx meets here.
 I know 250 is small but they are only early teens and so dad decided that was enough for now ;D
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Offline Davey Crocket

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Re: trials to vmx conversion
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2011, 05:34:18 pm »
Freak!!
QVMX.....Australia's #1 VMX club......leading the way.

Offline asasin

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Re: trials to vmx conversion
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2011, 05:40:26 pm »
Freak!!
Just the way the women like it ;D
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Offline LWC82PE

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Re: trials to vmx conversion
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2011, 05:44:32 pm »
Yes you want a shocker for the sidecar wheel. Being a 250 you want to keep it light. Dont go overboard with thick tubing. I have seen some guys use lengths of thick water pipe for chassis rails ::) which is damn heavy and not needed. If you use an appropriate OD tube and construct it with the gussets in the appropriate places and use triangulation, you can get strength without the need for thick heavy tubing.
Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

Offline asasin

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Re: trials to vmx conversion
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2011, 06:02:10 pm »
Thanks . It already has the sidecar on it it was used as a sidecar trials bike so the tube is really lightweight, I was  just not sure weather to leave the shock on or remove it and make it solid, cheers
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Offline Colin Jay

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Re: trials to vmx conversion
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2011, 06:10:34 pm »
Definitly leave the suspension on the sidecar, without it the thing will handle like a pig over rough (bumpy) ground.

The picture below is my KT250 sidecar, taken in about 1978 or 1979. The bike is still in the shed and will oneday be rebuilt in solo trim.


CJ
Why do things the easy way, when with a bit of effort you can really make it difficult for yourself!!

Offline popeye

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Re: trials to vmx conversion
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 07:22:31 pm »
Hello, sorry about being an influance but good to see you getting into the sidecar side of things, the trials outfit will be a little different dimmension wise and will want to roll over when turning right so be careful and yes definetly leave the shock in it. They like tipping over because the wheel base is a little short without the leading link front end and the sidecar frame is not quite as wide as a MX outfit. One day we should try and get a container full of bikes  both solo and sidecar and make the trip over it would be bloody good fun...................
IN IT FOR THE FUN OF IT. LIKE MR NIKE SAYS JUST DO IT.

Offline asasin

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Re: trials to vmx conversion
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2011, 06:53:53 pm »
Yea it did seem a little tippy to the right ( especially when one girl decided to jup off the side chair ;D) I might widen it a bit , does the outer wheel size matter and do you put brakes on that wheel at all?
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Offline VMX247

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Re: trials to vmx conversion
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2011, 07:25:56 pm »
Best is in the West !!

Offline Colin Jay

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Re: trials to vmx conversion
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2011, 09:23:16 pm »
I am going to open up a hugh can of worms here as just about every sidecar builder has their own ideas on dimemsional relationships, but please remember that building and setting up a sidecar is more of a black art than a science. My experience comes from having build about a dozen sidecars, the majority of which were trials sidecars, but I have also built a few trail riding outfits and some pseudo MX outfits on 500 Yamahas and currently have a long term Yamaha XS1100 sidecar project gathering dust in the shed.

In regards to widening the sidecar it will make the outfit more stable, but a lot of the "wallowing" that trials outfits do is a result of soft suspension.

The basic relationship of wheel track to wheelbase that I have worked around is that the wheel track should be between 55 to 65% of the wheelbase. The wheelbase of the average observed trials bike from the late 70's - early 80's (the era that I build most of my trials outfits) was around the 1320mm mark. The minimum track for an observed trials sidecar in the GCR's was 750mm (and still is). This minimum wheel track on a 1320mm wheelbase is a relationship of about 57%.  I built most of my sidecars right on the minimum wheel track as it made life easier squeezing the outfit between thing. Pushing the wheel track out to 65% of the wheelbase would give a wheel track of around the 850mm mark which would greatly increase the stability of the sidecar when turning right handers. The other dimension that is important in terms of stability when turning to the right is the sidecar wheel lead. The further forward the sidecar wheel the more stable the outfit will be when turning to the right, but you can go to far, and it then give problems when turning left. I usually set the sidecar wheel lead at between 22 to 24% of the wheelbase. Most of the time the final lead was determined by trial and error based on the sidecars ability to turn full lock to the left with out scrubbing the sidecar wheel, which of course leads into the amount of toe-in that the sidecar wheel has, which I usually set at around 2 - 3%.

Sidecar wheel size was always a matter of personal choice. I built most of my trails and trail riding outfits with 16" sidecar wheels, although I used a 14"wheel on my current Bultaco, which I built in 1994. Bigger diameter wheels ride better over bumps, as smaller wheels tend to "fall" into the bumps / holes. Of course, large diameter wheels need bigger / taller mudguards to cover them, so it is always a trade off.

A few people back in my time experimented with sidecar wheel brakes, but setting them up was just way more hassle than they were worth. I rode the final few years of my career on a 350 Bultaco outfits (and still ride a couple of events a year on the same outfit), and brakes that worked would have been a luxury. Back then, as now, I use a decompressor instead of the brakes, which are only there to get the outfit through machine examination. A lot of the modern trials outfits are now running with sidecar wheel brakes, using small disc brake setups.

CJ


« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 04:15:34 pm by Colj500 »
Why do things the easy way, when with a bit of effort you can really make it difficult for yourself!!

Offline asasin

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Re: trials to vmx conversion
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011, 02:09:15 pm »
Thanks for all the info guys , I should now be able to "cut and tuck" it to get it about right for the Girls
Cheers
John
If in doubt ,WIND IT OUT