Author Topic: B40 Exhaust Spec's.  (Read 5994 times)

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Curly3

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B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« on: May 19, 2011, 07:55:27 pm »

My brother found this amongst some of my dad's notes.
It looks like his hand writing, I've got 2 of these reverse cone megaphones in the shed, the bike this was used on was a bloody quick beast in an Elstar Slider.
Anyway, I think it's an interesting look back.
Pat Pend.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 08:00:48 pm by SlideRulz »

mainline

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 09:24:19 pm »
cool, what's the go with old 4 stroke exhausts? are they as crucial to the power delivery as two stroke pipe design?

Is this style of exhaust the sort of thing you'd run on an mx bike or is it more designed for dirttrack bikes?

what is the average flight speed of an african swallow?

Offline Tossa

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2011, 02:58:16 pm »
average flight speed approx 24mph
1973 Rickman Zundapp Metisse, to rebuild
1979 Husqvarna WR250
1974 Husqvarna MAG CR250

Offline pancho

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2011, 03:37:06 pm »
 Hey slides, reminds me of the old 'gospel for BSA 500 exhaust pipes.'
  48" long, including megaphone of 14" with 4" throat.
 I went the 48" straight pipe, didn't want to put up with 'megaphone-itis.
 cheers pancho. I'm thinking B33 or Goldie.
dont follow me i'm probably off line!

Offline GD66

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2011, 04:36:41 pm »
Laden or unladen ?  ???
Nostalgia's not what it used to be....

Curly3

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2011, 05:13:22 pm »
Shit Leith, you're asking the wrong bloke tech questions, all at once.
GD, Bin's Bin Unladen for a few weeks now, did he ever ride a bike.

Offline matcho mick

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2011, 06:09:45 pm »
geezas pancho,that formula sounds suspiciously similar to pushrod matchos  ;D, :P
work,the curse of the racing class!!
if a hammer dosn't fix it,you have a electrical problem!!

cheapracer

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2011, 03:33:22 am »

Open megaphones tend to upset carburation anywhere other than the length (rpm band) they are tuned for as rather vicious reflected waves get sent back into the inlet tract during overlap generally at slow speeds. This is fine for a slider or road racing where you tend to stay high in the revs but can make a dirt bike harder to ride. If your not a tuner or have access to one then safer bet is a straight through.

I presume thats what pancho is refering too with "megaphone itis".

Offline pancho

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2011, 11:52:03 am »
 Megaphone-itis is it cheapy, thats why it was rarely seen on short circuit[dirt track] but common on road racing in 'the good old days'.
  Hang on a minute , these are the good old days!
 From memory the the power band was dramatically increased after 4000rpm and lasted about 2000 more which suited the predominately push rod engines then in use. Under a couple of thousand rpm the pressure wave arrived at the carby in time to blow the mixture back out the bellmouth, with the resultant very ratty missfiring hence the term 'megaphone-itis. Some compromise could be achieved by attaching a short reverse cone at the end.
 cheers pancho
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Swiss

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2011, 12:17:52 pm »
A LOT of compromise can be achieved with the reverse cone at the end of the megaphone!  And the sketch shows just that, a reverse cone.  That pipe from the old sketch would probably work pretty well if you want to tune for a peak power rpm of about 7,000rpms.

Swiss

Curly3

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2011, 05:58:50 pm »
Sounds like you've got a pretty good idea about exhaust design Swiss.
Yes this was a high revving engine, for that era.
I only rode the bike once, a club day at the old Amaroo Park Short Circuit, which was it's last outing, it was jumping out of 3rd gear so I had to rev the crap out of it in 2nd before jumping into 4th.
The engine is on my brothers bench right now being prep'd for a pre 65 dirt tracker.

Offline bazza

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2011, 07:40:02 pm »
swiss are you the swiss cheese exhaust guru?
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cheapracer

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2011, 07:53:50 pm »
Formula is 125940 x (exhaust open degrees BBDC + 180 degrees) divided by RPM x 6 = length of pipe in mm's.  

Using a 30/60 duration cam = (60 + 180) 240 degrees.

So 125940 x 240degrees / 7000rpm x 6 = 720mm or 28"

That pipe in the drawing above is 50" total length....

So 125940 x 240degrees / 4000rpm x 6 = 1260mm or 50"

That pipe will peak at around 4000rpm if it has a similar duration cam and I didn't include the exhaust port length either so may be a little less rpm peak.

An old rule of the thumb is 30" for a "race pipe" or the headers of an extractor set for a race car.

Swiss

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2011, 02:26:20 am »
swiss are you the swiss cheese exhaust guru?

I've messed around with exhaust tuning for a few years.  As someone said one time in the past, design the perfect exhaust system and the hardest thing to do will be to make it fit! 
You always need to include the port length as part of the tuned length.  Using an Anti-Reversion design (A-R)(like a Power-bomb, Mega-bomb, Yamaha chamber etc..) will change how a system tunes depending on where in the tuned length the A-R design is used.  There is no "perfect" formula for tuning exhaust, variables like port restrictions, pipe bends and those stupid things called "mufflers" always throw undesired problems into the results.  The numbers will get you close and then some track or dyno testing will put it where you want it!

The pipe in the sketch will not peak anywhere close to 4,000rpms because the primary pipe length is only 26" + about 3" for the port length or roughly 29" long. The primary pipe length is what tunes for the peak power rpm.  The megaphone does not tune in the same manner that the straight pipe does.  The straight pipe tunes at its exit/end which is the 29" length.  The megaphone actually tunes along its entire length with reverse waves being generated constantly as the sound wave expands.  So it in effect tunes for the length/time that the sound wave travels along it.  Megaphonitis typically tunes like a straight pipe but much more intense.  It is when you use the megaphone without the reverse cone.  Nice peak in the powerband but ONLY at a very narrow rpm range.  The reverse cone works with the megaphone to spread the tuning BELOW the peak rpm tuned length of the primary pipe.  If your primary length is 7,000rpms then the added megaphone will tune below that 7,000 point.  The width of the tuning effect of the megaphone is determined by the length of the megaphone.  The intensity of the megaphone effect is determined by the angle of the meg. cone.  The larger the angle the stronger the "boost", within limits.  Too strong an angle and the flow exhaust flow is separated from the meg. wall and creates turbulence which impedes the exhaust gas flow (effectively reducing the area of the cone).

Longer primary pipes, like we see on the typical MX bike these days are tuned for a "lesser" harmonic.  They are still tuned but not for as strong a peak power effect from the pipe.  They mostly typically use a straight pipe design which dumps into the muffler so their tuning is restricted to basically one rpm +/- 1,000rpms.  Different Engineers, designers and Scientists have varying ideas on the actual width of the "powerband" effects of straight pipe tuning, typically varying from 1,000rpms to about 2,500rpms.  The different attached cans and chambers that we see in today's performance exhaust systems help to widen the powerband by eliminating Reversion causing problems in the combustion chamber.  Basically A-R designs similar to a "Helmholtz" effect.

It is hard to use "rule of the thumb" tuning for race engines that vary in designs from low rpm Torque power to high rpm HP power.  Some of the differences in formulas for pipe designs are because of the differing ideas of either tuning for the Torque peak or the Horsepower peak.  The Torque peak of course is at a much lower rpm than the horsepower peak.  By tuning for the T-P it will give a strong mid-range but tend to run out of strong power as the rpms climb.  Tuning for the H-P will give a nice top end rpm boost if the engine is put together well enough to handle it.  I have seen many dyno run results where the engine peaks and then falls off as it nears max-rpm/redline.  Some engines have better high rpm breathing and will still be building HP as it hits redline.  Simple dyno runs can help you determine where to place the tuning rpm for your exhaust system.  Rules of thumb only work for "spec" engines that are all built the same and typically the "rules" are based on trial and error used to determine the "correct" dimensions for that specific engine combination!  Change the cam or the carb and everything else changes as well!

Sorry to have rambled on mates!  SlideRulz, your dad had some good notes, probably worked out either by trial and error on the track or on the dyno if he had access.  ;)

Swiss

Curly3

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Re: B40 Exhaust Spec's.
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2011, 06:41:51 pm »
It was definitely trial & error Swiss.
Thanks for the info on exhaust theory, it gives me a bit more of an idea into how & why, I'll probably have read it several times to really grab it but I'm sure I aint the only one.
Cheers, Steve