Author Topic: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's  (Read 18448 times)

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firko

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2009, 11:27:30 am »
Sun Praries got it in a nutshell. Because there's a less strict attitude towards period compliance at club day level, racers have got away with rule infringements to the point that they more often than not believe their bikes to be correct. In recent times I've seen reed valves in pre 70, wrong era hubs and suspension components in pre 75 and even complete bikes in the wrong class. While the onus initially falls on the competitor to present a legal bike for the class, who's there to advise him on any discrepancies with his bike (whether deliberate of accidental)? I haven't seen any serious attempts at eligibility scrutineering at a club day in years. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it's just that I haven't seen it at HEAVEN or Penrith club meetings in NSW. I'm guessing that VIPER and QVMX and WAVMX also have the same relaxed attitude to compliance scrutineering on their club days.

For our sport to move forward and to adopt new classes and age cutoffs we need to address the eligibility problems at ground level, the humble club day. Unfortunately for that to happen another problem raises its ugly head. Who's going to do it? Because of the complexity of the eligibility criteria and the huge variety of machinery involved, it's cruel to expect anybody to possess enough knowledge to be able to make accurate eligibility decisions on every bike he inspects.

I'm reasonably knowledgable on old bikes and I believe David Tanner to be one of the more astute officials in our movement and as I observed Dave doing his inspections at the Nats it dawned on me that even though it's assumed by some that the pair of us supposedly 'know our stuff', I was looking at bikes that I didn't have a clue were correct or not and I'm certain Dave was in the same boat.

So,how are we to solve the eligibility problem before it gets totally out of hand? The system as it is at the moment obviously has its flaws so perhaps its time for MA to form an eligibility comittee that would meet say four times per year to resolve sticky eligibility situations. For it to work we need to take the unknown away from those who make decisions. To achieve that I propose that various marque experts sub comittees also be appointed to oversee their particular brand of bike. For example (and I'm just using these guys as examples of my idea and aren't seriously proposing these folks.)
Maico: Stuart Muntz, Firko.
Yamaha: Nathan Senior (pre 75) Steve Gall (post 75)
Honda: Magoo,
Husqvarna: Husky Pete, Brian Watson.
Montesa:Ross Nimmo, Gary O'Brien.
.......And so it goes from Alron to Zundapp. Of course some of these comittees members could multi task and be on various different marque comittees. The marque comittees would assemble as much printed matter, service manuals, engine and frame numbers, identification photographs and other hard copy information to be used as reference to create defining cutoff and eligibility standards. Eventually a dosier could be created on many of the most popular machines eligible for VMX that would become 'the bible' for eligibility scrutineering. The dosier could be placed on disc or hard drive, the eligibility scrutineer at any event would have a lap top at his disposal with all the criteria needed at a key stroke and the pressure and guesswork would be gone. Anybody with access to the lap top could be the eligibility scrutineer at any meeting, the need to find someone who" knows his shit" gone with the stroke of a keyboard.

Of course this is a huge undertaking that would require the dedication of many knowledgable and dedicated people, and therein lies problem #3. Just like any other sport or organisation, ours has a majority of participants who just want to have fun (to paraphrase Cyndi Lauper!) and don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of it all. They just want to race and that's cool and fully understandable. However, I also know that there are some truly amazing fountains of knowledge out there. Anyone who's ever talked Huskys with Husky Pete or pre 65 scramblers with Alan Jones will know what I mean. This knowledge needs to be harnessed  for the benefit of our sport.

If something isn't done in the near future VMX will become stagnant, tied up in endless eligibility squabbles. This posting is merely an idea to promote discussion. There may be a simpler method than what I've proposed so if you've got an idea to streamline the growing eligibility dilemna please share it with us...................

All Things 414

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #91 on: August 18, 2009, 12:47:43 pm »
Wrong AJ. What I'm trying to say is that this is one subject that should be thrashed to death.
I agree that bikes competing in Nats should be right on the mark to avoid being protested but to me a big problem is the grey areas. I for the life of me can't understand a lot of the rules  ???. Take for example the fact that you can run 38mm forks in Pre 78 (albeit under the 9" rule). Where the hell did these forks come from in 1977?
How can a bike from 1979 be running around with external clickers and hi/low speed compression damping?

I think at a State level though (Viper, Heaven etc) It'd be over-kill and I believe that most of these organisations can self regulate. I saw a good example of this on the weekend where a chap who was running a more than obvious elligle mod was asked if he could change it back and it was done. No fireworks and everyone kept on racing.  :)

But the rules have to be looked at and changed. And if it meant running log books then I'm happy to do that.

(Big breath in) Firkos nailed it there I'd say. The people that know the bikes should be the ones saying what is legal and what isn't. MA can't possibly be expected to knock out some new rules in twelve months that is going to cover everything. The rules should be comprehensive, readable and fall on the side of common sense. We have to write our own rules and be able to interpret them. It'll take a lot of time and work..... :-\
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 12:51:37 pm by All Things 414 »

Offline Nathan S

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #92 on: August 18, 2009, 01:11:16 pm »
Plenty of times at Heaven events, there are 'quiet words' spoken to the owners of bikes that don't meet the rules.
If an owner is genuinely ignorant that his/her bike isn't legal, then that's only because nobody else at the meeting knows either (ie: Trainspotting stuff).

You're right that plenty of things are ultimately ignored at Heaven events, but that's up to the host club and the other riders to decide. We shouldn't be forced into doing something that would be bad for the club in the name of  some sort of 'predictive policing' of bikes that might later be taken to a National event.
I'd be surprised if any of the other club took a different appraoch.

I also don't buy it as an excuse/reason for people taking ineligible bikes to the Nationals - particularly seeing as the Heaven regulars seemed to be the ones to keep themselves free of controvosy at/after Conondale...  :D
The good thing about telling the truth is that you don't have to remember what you said.

Sun Prarie Jimmy

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #93 on: August 18, 2009, 01:12:18 pm »
All Things agreeing with the Guru. F me what’s the world coming to    ;D

Offline AjayVMX

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #94 on: August 18, 2009, 01:44:14 pm »
All Things agreeing with the Guru. F me what’s the world coming to    ;D

It's a beautiful thing!  ;)

firko

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #95 on: August 18, 2009, 02:08:22 pm »
Quote
I think at a State level though (Viper, Heaven etc) It'd be over-kill and I believe that most of these organisations can self regulate. I saw a good example of this on the weekend where a chap who was running a more than obvious elligle mod was asked if he could change it back and it was done. No fireworks and everyone kept on racing. 

Quote
You're right that plenty of things are ultimately ignored at Heaven events, but that's up to the host club and the other riders to decide

Perhaps one way of ensuring that everyone at least starts the season on a kosher bike, why not take a leaf out of the drag racers book and hold a non race pre season "tech inspection day" where eligibility experts could inspect every bike and advise the owners on any changes needed to be made and to advise them on various aspects of their involvements in the sport ranging from licencing right through to riding gear inspections as well as bike eligibility. The day could double as a BBQ type social event and give newbies an opportunity to meet their fellow racers and learn how 'the system' operates in a more relaxed enviroment. 

With that event we are given a good opportunity to see each others bikes and know who and what we will be competing against. I'm sure that if there are issues with the legalities on our bikes we'd rather nut it out in a relaxed pre season social atmosphere before the racing season kicks off than be surprised with a protest at our first big race of the year......once again, merely a discussion thought.
Quote
It's a beautiful thing! 
Shucks, I feel all warm and fuzzy  8)

Offline paul

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #96 on: August 18, 2009, 04:37:12 pm »
All I can say is make your bike fit the rules, dont try and make the rules fit your bike. The protest was upheld correctly and it took someone to protest the bikes to make everyone from this point on double check their machine - its a positive. What has happened for years is a quiet chat about some dodgy part that some have honestly not noticed others plainly took the advice as an open book to flaunt the rules.

There could have been 10 more protests, for example CR250m with welded reed, Husky's x 2 with illegal frames and swingarms, pre 65 bikes with wrong stuff, M model Suzukis etc etc etc. Not withstanding the bikes with mufflers fitted at scruitineering that fell of at race time.

I did ask a rider to move up to pre78 with his 1975 Bike - this was just too blantant to let go but in the main most bikes were pretty close to the mark and to even draw into question the protest based on the facts - not the emotion is plainly incorrect.

Can I also say that the standard of machine was very high in most cases at the Nationals but at least 10% :( on my machinery line were rejected for safety reasons. I have to say that I have been to 15 nationals as scruitineer and the basic stuff I found was crazy - loose steering heads, un plugged handle bars, half the bolts missing on sprokets, stuff held on with wire - sheez. To me these issues were and are by far more relevant than the 78 issues. Perhaps someone should start a thread on how to prepare your bike for the nationals!!!

211


[/quote
SHOULD THIS BE COMMENTED ON BY A COMMISIONER WHEN ANY BODY INVOLVED IN A PROTEST/APPEALL HAS 21 DAYS

« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 05:12:23 pm by PAUL »

Offline Rossvickicampbell

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #97 on: August 18, 2009, 04:48:04 pm »
Firko - I have been sitting back watching all these related threads with much interest.  Taking this into account and the much discussion that occured before the Nats - I can see one big problem IMHO.  It appears that it does not matter which track you go down ie setting year ie pre 78 and allowing nothing from after, setting clear guidelines or making it all very clear and accurate - there are several groups of people out there - those that want the rules and are prepared to defend them to the letter, those that "break" them through ignorance because they are so convoluted and those that think because parts are not available or it doesn't make a difference putting a xxxx part on a yyyy bike that you will not please everybody and somebody (the loudest minority) will bitch.  I mean we have people supporting a guy who protested 100% by the rules and other people shit bagging him, we have people going off that weren't even at the meeting about what should or should not of happened.

I try and be a "half glass full" person but stepping back, seeing what is going on and I can't for the life of me see a win win situation for all here either though I have an opinion on what I would like to see happen.

Sorry to be negative but I would stake my left one that regardless of what "system" is adopted the very next thread would be somebody whinging about it.

And I am prepared to help/support the majority which ever way it goes because I don't ride for "sheepstations" but want to have a good time - so don't take this as a cant be bothered ;D

cheers

Rossco
1974 Yamaha YZ360B
1980 Honda CR250R - Moto X Fox Replica

All Things 414

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #98 on: August 18, 2009, 06:58:15 pm »
Settle down folks. This is like the soccer game in no-mans land during WW1

Sorry to be negative but I would stake my left one that regardless of what "system" is adopted the very next thread would be somebody whinging about it.

You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but the present system doesn't seem to be pleasing anybody any of the time.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 07:10:27 pm by All Things 414 »

Offline Kane Mcguire

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2009, 07:18:04 pm »
I have been on committees for speedway (cars) and for waterskiing, and have seen this happen before. In both cases a protest occurred and the clubs decided to sort out the rules of the sports. What occurred in both cases is that the rules were totally overhauled and it stuffed the sports. Everyone had to make changes.

 I THINK IF THE RULES ARE TO BE AMENDED IT SHOULD OCCUR 6 MONTHS DOWN THE TRACK AFTER EVERYONE SETTLES DOWN. YOU MIGHT FIND THEN, THERE IS NOT THE SAME INTEREST. AND ALSO ONLY ONE OR 2 ITEMS IN THE RULE BOOK TO BE CHANGED AT A TIME. No matter what is resolved, cheating is still going to occur.

211kawasaki

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #100 on: August 18, 2009, 07:36:40 pm »
 :)

Offline micks

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #101 on: August 19, 2009, 10:12:55 am »
6 months kane - it takes about 2 years for a rule change to go thru ma and if we where going do 2 items only knock that out to 6 years as 211 kawasaki can tell you the pain you have to go thru. good points anyway.

firko

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Re: Aussie titles. Protest. pre -/78 125's
« Reply #102 on: August 19, 2009, 12:04:44 pm »
As a parting comment on this subject, I reckon there'd be few if any problems if we built bikes to suit the rulebook and not try and change the rulebook to suit our bikes. The rules may not be perfect but the problems that emerged from the Nats could have been avoided if the rulebook had been followed to a tee. This is not in any way a personal criticism of any of the racers involved but if they'd built their bikes to conform to what MoMs allows for their particular class the end result would have been very different.

The rulebook certainly isn't perfect and perhaps some of the protest points are trivial, however building a bike to suit our own perspective on what the class rules should be and expect the officials and other racers in our class to agree with us is a touch wishful and perhaps a bit arrogant. Whether we agree with them or not,when we sign our entry form for the Nats we agree to follow the rulings set down in MoMs and if we are caught out contradicting those rules we must be prepared to be protested and the case dealt with by officials using the same manual to make their decision as we should have when we built and entered our bike. Ignorance of the rules isn't an excuse.

If we feel the rules need modification or updating this forum is a good vehicle for discussing it with interested others but in the end we need to deal with any rule changes through our club using the official system that's in place. It's a lengthy process but the system is in place to utilise a series of checks and balances to make sure the commission gets it right. I understand the angst involved here as I've been protested a couple of times and wasn't happy with the situation but after it all died down I eventually understood the reasoning behind those protests and changed the questionable parts on my bikes. I think time will have the same effect on those protested at Conondale and eventually they'll understand why they were placed in such a situation.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 12:09:35 pm by firko »