Looking for some triples for a champion headset ???

[Freakshow]

OKay so i have a champion frame i want to get up and running its has what appears to be tappered bearing races inside the headset, but i dont have any thing that just slots in , having said that i found the 2 tripples below, can any one identify them and and tell me if they would be ? able to take tapered races ?or totally useless for what i need to do ?

the top forks seem to be bombadair betors or somting , they look like 2 early Alloy top sets pinch clamped to the rod  they have betor bar clamps on them i can see that, but they have like 2 big plugs that must go in a frame and then there is a flat needle beering plate that sits on them as the B-race, so that must be easy to recognise what they were from. 

The other set just has a made in Japan stamp inside, but they dont seem to have a speedo pick up nor do they have any angle as in there are almost flat across the face almost inlin with the headset as opposed to being forward of the headset ?

So what are the both from ?

can they be made to accept tapered cones ?
should i just put them back in the corner of the shed and go find some cerriani or aces that normally go into the champ frames.

thanks for any help 

[Freakshow]

BUMP

[Noel]

Can't help with the pictures'
But from my experience tapered bearings do not need any thing special as they have a parallel bore
 and the taper is in the cones them selves so what you need to know is the inside bore of the frame and the diameter of the machined
sections on the steering stem and dig out the bearing catalogue .

Noel

[Freakshow]

So do you just find a set of tapers with the ID that fits over the OD of the stem ?  do they need to be retained or do they just sit on the tripples ?

stupid question i know but im in grey area's when its not just a simple like for like.

[vmx42]

Hey Freaky,
Your spot on. Just get bottom bearing that is an interference fit on the head stem. The top bearing just slips over the stem.

If you can't find bearings with the correct O.D, you might have to make up some spacers to press into the frame.

The clamps in the bottom pic are early RM Suzuki, probably an A or B model. You can get tapered bearings for those clamps from AllBalls. Dont know the outside Diameter though.

I think that you should probably be looking for a set of clamps with the correct offset to suit your frame/forks/application and then reverse engineering from there. No point having clamps with beautiful tapered bearings and crap steering.

Good luck,
VMX42

[Moto]

 The top set are Betor tripples,these were fitted to 125 Huskies and several other smaller Euro brands of the time(without a closer pic of the lowers its hard to tell which brand).Some Can-am's also used the same parts of the headstock but had the bearings mounted in eliptical cones so the steering head angle could be adjusted.A pretty trick idea.
As you know Betor also made separate ranges of forks for Bultaco's,Ossas etc.

[Freakshow]

the top betor clamps are the same top and bottom ( as in identical) and they have like 2 big donuts with flat needle bearings washer that they roll on ( see in pic)

[JC]

Freaky,

The top forks are Canam betor. Steering stem (I think) should be 1" OD top & bottom. It maybe 25mm but from memory its 1" (good old USA hasn't gone metric yet, & Jeff Smith of course is british). Mine are on the bike now so I can't check. Offset (centre of stem to centre line of forks) should be 60mm.   

Champion frame headstock could well be imperial dimemsions too (since also made in US). Timken taper catalogue lists numerous 1" ID bearings available, a couple w metric OD, but most w imperial OD. If you meaure yrs & post/pm them, I can look them up for you as I have a catalogue.

The others appear to be for forks w offset/leading axle.  Probably w 36mm tubes. If they're Suz (& I suspect they are too), offset is something like 30mm. See what VMX42 is getting at! Forks w in-line axle typically ran 52-62mm offset back then (except for post73 Bultacos).

I don't know what triples/offset champion frames were built to use. (Did any of yr frames come w triples so you can check?) But if they were built around the typical 52-62mm offset triples, reducing that to only 30mm  would give you more trail, a heavier feel to the steering cos of more self-centring effect & more weight on front wheel, & a shorter wheelbase. That may mean the front wheel sticks better, but it may also completely stuff up the geometry & handling.

If they're Suz/RM forks, stem OD is probably 25/27 (top/bottom). Go to Allballs website, where they list ID/OD of all tapers (in pairs) that they sell, or let me know as I've downloaded their info & I'll check for you. Or try Pyramid-parts.com in UK if you don't find a match. They sell them individually too.

Hope this helps

[steve234]

I would have thought any betor or ceriani clamps that take non leading axle forks would bolt staright up on a Champion frame. Those front ends were the go at the time and most pictures i've seen indicate that combo was the ticket. IMO you have to go with non leading axle forks (35mm) unless you have transplanted a rocket ship into it 

My betor's have tapered bearings and they are of 1972 vintage.

[Freakshow]

yes i got a few betor/cerianni front ends in some of my Dt bikes, but these tripples look differant to the Arces i have in most of them, and i have never had the need to redo any headsets so its all news to me. 

IM half thinking about moving on one of my champion race bikes for a wayne rainey 360 i have been offered, maybe i should use that front end and put this one in that ? still need to figure out the beering bit though.

[firko]

Freaky..why not pull the triple clamps out of one of your Arces equipped bikes and compare the stem diameter and steering head dimensions with the Betor triples and Champion steering head. If they're the same (which I suspect they will be) all you then have to do is take the tapered kit out of the other bike and take it to any bearing service and ask them to supply you the same bearing kit.

[Freakshow]

yes JC those cones/doughnut things are offset-eliptical ( only just noticed - very clever) and they have a long number stamped think it starts like 748 and one ends in 300 and the other 200.   

YEp Firko, i stuffed around 2 weeks back and pulled one out to see if they had tapers as well, when i was at the property to see how they were set up, which is how i know i need tapers,  we race this weekend, then im away for a week so hopefully after that ill be in front of the bike again to have a good look, i have to meet tony T that week anyway so maybe he might have a look for me 

i was just hopeing someone might have had all the answers

[JC]

Freaky,

The 200 indicates 2degs rake adjustment per pair of cones; 300 = 3deg per pair. One of ea = 2.5deg. But they will be useless in the champion headstock as they require a set of cups pressed into the headstock that requires a massive headstock in the frame - nearly 2.5" ID.

So take those eccentric hemispherical 'cones' off the stem along w the flat washer-like radial bearings, then measure the OD of the shaft where it fattens (top & bottom). Thats where yr tapers will sit. (Taper bearings are only tapered on the rollers & the inside of the outer shell.)

Since the offset of the Canam/betor triples is the same as the ceriani & arces, (as per PM) they're the ones to use. Just measure the OD of the steering stem & the ID of the headstock in the frame then go to yr local bearing dealer & there'll hopefully be a standard size available to fit.

[Freakshow]

Do you want this donught cup bits ?