V8 Races O.S. - Why? Sorry not bike related

[mx250]

I pinched this from the internet - Marked as Mallala but I reckon Homestead Corner Warwick Farm. Captures the period - mix of cars and the speed boating attitude under acceleration and the lurching through corners - you can see them working hard.

[firko]

Before the EH Holdens, Lotus Cortinas and then the Mustangs ruled, touring car racing was owned by the mighty Jaguar. As a Jag man this photo does it for me, you can feel them fighting the heavy big things, dragging that big steering wheel around. It must have been a cold day going by the cardboard accross both grilles.
 I once had the pleasure of being taken on three fast laps around Wakefield Park in the passenger seat of the ex Bob Jane Championship winning 3.8 Jag. It was a real A ticket ride, even more amazing considering that the driver was in his seventies and wasn't afraid to stick it to the beautifully restored old gem.
                 

[monaro308]

I was the same,always did calder,phillip island,sandown400/500 and then Bathurst since '95 and i stopped going to most of them about 4 years ago and hardly watch them or just have it going in the background.
About the only thing left that is production are the grill badges and the rear 1/4s...the rest is chopped (the VE is shorter to match the older falcon)5.0 lt engines composite front panels etc etc Tony cockring keeps harping on about the best formula and family orientated motorsport there is.
From what i have seen,the Biante series historics gets me interested...not because i own a HJ,but what i grew up around.
Another thing missing these days is hero's and characters that were a mixed age group.What you see in most sports these days are teenagers and young ones groomed to be TV wise politically correct and boring as batshit.Also if they are contracted to a particular TV network (Courtney and his dancing ways)
they push the crap out of him even if he is down the field.
Another thing that p!sses me of with most sports is the general 100% pure fan keeps footing the higher entrance and establishment costs every year whilst the "try to be" A grade listers rub shoulders with the whos who to get their photo in the paper that know jacksh!t about any sport and get in for free.
They stopped getting my money although i still occasionally go to the Formula 1 because its a good perve and the sound of the F1 engines gets me "hard"....and the last few years good bands have been playing after the race....also my sisters niece will be singing the national anthem this year 

[TT]

Tony T, I'm surprised you had to watch both those rounds you mention in your original post to come to the conclusion you have.

On another note and maybe I am misunderstanding you but in a subsequent post you have a bit of a dig at Firko for for his Namby Pamby sit on the fence comments and in the very next sentence you agree with everthing he had to say.

As always I will stand corrected.

Sorry Col. Yeah, it was a joke. That's the danger of the internet when you couldn't see my tongue firmly planted in my left cheek. 

FWIW I've been lucky enough to spend a bit of time alongside Alan Moffatt. He ain't young either, but shit he can still steer! 

[mx250]

Before the EH Holdens, Lotus Cortinas and then the Mustangs ruled, touring car racing was owned by the mighty Jaguar. As a Jag man this photo does it for me, you can feel them fighting the heavy big things, dragging that big steering wheel around. It must have been a cold day going by the cardboard accross both grilles.
 I once had the pleasure of being taken on three fast laps around Wakefield Park in the passenger seat of the ex Bob Jane Championship winning 3.8 Jag. It was a real A ticket ride, even more amazing considering that the driver was in his seventies and wasn't afraid to stick it to the beautifully restored old gem.
                 

Back in the day when touring car meant the car could be registered and driven to the circuit (notice rego Vic OO-088!!).

[vmx42]

Sorry Guys, but if you  think production racing is the answer then you have your rose tinted glasses on.

It has been tried time and time [and time] again and the complete lack of any form of spectator involvement always condemns it to irrelevance. How many of you went to Bathurst late last year for the big production race [or even knew that it was on]?

I never got to see [as Firko has said] "Jane, Beechey and Geohegan in their Mustangs being nipped at the heels by the Alfa Romeos, Lotus Cortinas and Mini Coopers" so I think I should take a look at the Biante series this year to get a look at what I missed.

To my mind any form of motorsport where 'repeated perfection' is required for success is boring. I think modern Supercross fits that bill well. It is a great sport - but in its current form the riders have to be 'inch perfect' do down side the jumps that it becomes a display. The only place that rewards a rider when taking a risk is the Whoop section where a brave rider can hang it out in true Motocross fashion and hopefully gain some time or positions.

MotoGP is the same, it currently rewards total precision with great lap times. A speculative block pass down the inside is rewarded with a 3 second increase your lap time and no chance of winning. So we end up with a procession and the occasional pass when the rider in front makes a small mistake and looses momentum. Again boring racing - a great spectacle, and riders with great skill but still boring racing in the main.

And the V8 Supercars are the same. They reward precision. It is not the driver with the biggest balls that is successful, but the one who is the most precise. The cars need to be driven 'straight' and have their tyres conserved to achieve the shortest race time, and therefore the best finishing position. A driver that grabs his car by the scruff of the neck and 'gives it some' simply goes backwards as his tyres go off.

How it that entertaining?? So we need a formula that give the driver a car that be thrown around all day, that allow for all types of driving styles to feature, not just the boring, robotic precision of the current crop. I am not saying that the current drivers aren't skilled it is just that certain skills are more valued than others.

Having said all that I suppose it is no surprise that I think of all the current motorsports WRC is the most interesting as they never come close to achieving perfection, they have to take care of the cars, but they also have big balls and lots of wide eye moments. They are fast and only seconds away from disaster at any time.

So having said that then maybe we should bring back 'Rallycross'. Now Catalina Park, that was a hoot… [rose coloured glasses or not]!
VMX42

[mx250]

"Mr Cochrane said the sport was looking to stage more events overseas, following on from races this year in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. Singapore is tipped for 2011.

"It's stepping stones and there's no question that in the future we would probably like that to grow into five or six international events," he said. "

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/germans-to-join-v8-supercars-20100309-pvdm.html

[Canam370]

I reckon the loonies in the V8 utes fit the entertainment bill nicely 

[Lozza]

Whilst I don't disagree with you Jeff there is a few good reasons why we have 'perfection' in racing. First is data/telemetry, with this there is no real alternative if you team mate is 1 second a lap faster you overlay the data and hey look you have a different line into turn 2 that's 3m longer , it can easily be seen if your overdriving/riding the vehicle. Next would be the big money and pressure to win, if you want to keep that well paid dream job as a professional racer, you have to do what the team asks.
Taking 200HP from a V8 and giving them bigger harder tyresand smaller brakes, would be a start. But changes cost big $$$$

[vmx42]

Hey Lozza,
I understand why we end up with 'perfection' in racing. And as an almost scientific endeavour I love the processes and technologies involved - it IS fascinating. But the question here is how to balance the pursuit of 'perfection' and generating a set of rules that allows great 'racing' - that is what I was trying to say [probably badly]. It seems that presently it is almost impossible to have both.

I stick by my Supercross example and why outdoor motocross is infinitely superior in both the racing and the spectacle.

Maybe the machines have become just too good. IMHO the best racing occurs when the rider/driver has to exercise great control over a machine that is  slightly inconsistent in its behaviour on the limit - think rallying or speedway - the limit is so hazy that the driver/rider is constantly reassessing just where the limit actually is. The result is 'big eyes' for the rider and lots of Oh's and Ahh's from the crowd.

Maybe if the V8's were more like enlarged 'Aussie Legend' cars the racing would, perhaps, be far better and more entertaining.

As I said, I love the technology but not at the expense of great racing. If that means that the machines have to be simpler with more restrictive rules that actually promote passing and dicing on the track then I wouldn't mind one bit.

This is a good, interesting subject. Maybe there is an answer out there somewhere…? Back to you!!
VMX42

[oldfart]

It's a show , Both Holden and Ford run pretty much the same cars....  Cockhead has firked it up that much that they have to cut and shut them to fit inside a template. Racing of production cars are long gone and in a way was the biginning of the end in my eyes.
 

[Lozza]

It is probably impossible to have both, as the technology allows perfection each and every time there is no guesswork.Engineers in professional teams pretty much know 'everything' after the first session, as they have already simulated everything from previous data.That goes for the engine/chassis build as well.
 I still think great tracks make great races. Phillip Island and Laguna Seca consistantly produce great races(with Laguna 08 many fans choice of the race of the decade), the answer isn't street races or Herman Tilke designed abominations.The more the track takes advantage of natural terrain the better it seems to be.Which is consistent with your outdoor v's SX analogy.
I don't think there is any more or less brown pants moments today as there was yesterday, these days everyone scrapes their elbow in MotoGP that's going pretty hard, going through  Reid Pk on a sub 2.10min lap with the mirror kissing the wall, at Bathurst still frightens all the V8 drivers. 
I've had a close look at a V8(a Fujitsu car) and they basicaly are up scaled aussie cars, ie a tubular space frame with a 'body' bolted onto it. All the panels are pop riveted together and to the space frame on a V8, the big difference is the three zero's on the end of the price of everything for a V8
NASCAR is simple and cars are close(and a lot more technology than any fan would admit)  etc etc but to any racing purist resembles the WWF.

My quick fix comes directly from Peter Clifford of WCM fame........................... 4 speed gearboxes............
Formula Ford and 125GP embodies all the on the limit, close racing , elbows out and rubbing is racing ethos but unfortunately that's when most race fans go to the loo and the beer tent  

[VMX247]

watching Adelaide Utes now     what a hoot and the crowd is packed inn..restarts..pushing and shoving,,what a calamity...just like the old speedway ,but with colorful utes     great stuff