OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Maico => Topic started by: YUMASTEPSIDE on September 24, 2009, 12:50:01 pm
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Can anyone tell from this picture if this pipe would give more top end or bottom end ?
(http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/yumastepside/mc.jpg)
Roger
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did you buy it rodger
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it's a wild guess without more info but i'd reckon good tourque with trailbike style design.
tourque-not sheer horspower.
if that makes sense.
ride it and let us know ;D
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........sorry to get you all excited for nothing! It's just a pic I found on the net ,and it looks like a well tucked in,properly silenced,and very neat exhaust .If the pipe gave good bottom and midrange in that configuration, I would get Geoff to make a copy for my GS250.
Roger :-[ :-[ :-[
I can never remember if a longer header pipe is for top end or bottom ? ??? ??? ???
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What itwould make would sound that's all.There isn't anything really to copy and poor owner should demand a refund.It's common to see a pipe to fat but rare to see one to thin. ;D
Longer headers are for bottom end.
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Maico`s original pipes had stingers, not fat pipes, most pre 75 bike have stingers.
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Pipe brand is Circle F made in the USA
Have one on my 73 - 400, works very well
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The stinger would be inside the muffler just like a Frontera pipe ........thanks pigmy,good to know.
Roger
and yes, it does appear to be a small pipe for a 501!
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Yes a Circle F pipe-if you look at the last weld near the tip-it has a stinger under and the silncer assembly welded on over that. The power is very nice and smooth, IMO kills some bottom from the 4spd and 5spd 400-440 engines. These pipes can be crushed more easly than a stocker or a M.O. pipe. ...and personally I think the stock, M.O. or GMC pipe looks way better. Kevin Felle is to be commended though for producing these pipes which make great power at a great price. We see a lot of them here in Texas, since he is in Houston.
Were I in Oz-I would likely have a GMC pipe-or have him make one to suit.
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The design is shit not the construction, there is not even a bare minimum of thought gone into that. All expansion chambers have 'stingers' as I think there is confusion with a 'silencer'. Works well compared to..........................????
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Ok, but I challenge that the construction is light-as I smashed mine about a half dozen times-finally to the point that it could not be repaired. Again-an inexpensive pipe that happens to make smooth power. Yes, it is obvious that all the Circle F downpipes show a very similar design. I understand the up pipes he makes are quite good, though.
Lozza, I agree with the simplicity of the design-and also my M.O. pipe was beaten up way worse-and never dented or crushed. I'm not up on the current exchange rate, but the GMC pipes look to be the goods. Also available are the New "Canuck power Pipe" from Caldwell at Candian Maico.
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Methinks the Circle F Maico pipe is so close to stock there'd be little if any increase in overall performance . That pipe however appears to be a 400/440 pipe and think he may have it to spread the power of the 501 further up the rev range. The last thing you want on a 501 is more bottom end. I have a Circle F TM250 pipe that Kevin Felle claimed to be 'similar' to RH dimensions and while it's a nicely made pipe that works just fine, it's nothing like my genuine NOS RH74 pipe. The thing with any American made vintage MX pipe is that the AHRMA doesn't allow tapered headers in pre 75 classes in a bid to keep the technology 'old school'. I don't agree as tapered headers were around back then but rules is rules I guess so it's no good making modern designed pipes if they're not legal to use. I can see where they're coming from though. If there weren't restrictions we'd probably see a lot more "Poison 'Lil" atrocities in AHRMA ranks. Having said that, I reckon you can build a pipe using new age theories without damaging the asthetics of the bike.
Below is the Professor Pete pipe on my old squarie. Peter Reynolds built it for me in the early 90s using his own computer program developed using theories from A. Graham Bell and Eric Gorr and it immediately transposed my old bike into a rocket with increases all through the range. Note the tapered header, fat belly and how neatly it tucks in. It's completely different to that Circle F thing shown on the above 501. My old 350's been used for motocross and dirt track with some pretty aggressive riders as well as fat old me on board her and there's hardly a dent in the pipe. My 'Professor Pete' pipe might not be as pretty as that on the 501 Yuma posted but I'd be my goolies it works a shitload better and it doesn't look totally wrong for the era.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/LCRXT-sq6.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/IHMBO-sq5.JPG)
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I was going to say it looks very much like a stock pipe.
The end cone running inside the muffler tube is a common way to build them for strength. My very early pipes used to run the last cone down to the stinger tube & then add the muffler like Firko's but I found it too flimsy as the mufflers would often break off.
Small chambers tucked away aren't very good...
for business as I get less repair jobs ::) ;D
The early GS pipes were down pipes but the 74 GS was an up / side pipe.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Maico-250GS-pipe-1.jpg)
That pipe of yours Firko looks quite short, like it would be a bit of a top end screamer
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.........looks like I've stirred up something here ,so how about this one? The ad comes from " Motocross " September 1976
Roger
(http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/yumastepside/CCF26092009_00000.jpg)
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The bloke I got the pipe from never had it fitted to his AW400.........and by the way , thats not an AW replica, he actually has one of Adolph Weil's 1974 bikes.
Roger
(http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/yumastepside/IMGP5035.jpg)
(http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/yumastepside/IMGP5038.jpg)
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I've still got one of those awful Aaen up pipes that I'd bought for my 440 from Blair Harley back in 1974 after flattening my down pipe for the umpteenth time. I hazily remember it being a bitch to rejet the bike to suit the pipe.(36mm Mikuni at the time) .
I've still got it and briefly ran it on a 400 Maico radial I built out of left over shit during the early vintage years. It burned the shitter out of my leg causing me to remember why I'd taken off my bike back in 1974. Having said that, I'm going to use it on my upcoming 250 squarie powered Micro Metisse in a bid for period integrity.
At the same time Wheelsmith made an up pipe conversion that was far better in design but it had a severe design flaw. In a bid to route the pipe more cleanly and avoid the leg burner situation of the Aaen pipe, Wheelsmith routed the pipe through the airbox (mucho cutting and shutting was required unless you bought the Wheelsmith airbox).This cause the heating of the inlet air causing all sorts of jetting anf breathing problems. My mate Chris Ellis wrapped his pipe in asbestos matting and aluminium tape in the area that passed through the airbox and that eased the situation a bit but it was never very successful for motocross. The pipe was sold to another mate who fitted it to his Elstar Maico slider without an airbox and it produced some admirable improvements all through the range.
That pipe of yours Firko looks quite short, like it would be a bit of a top end screamer
Geoff, the pipe was originally built for my 250 Maico that was used purely for dirt track and on that bike it definitely produced a radical charge from mid to top. I fitted it to the 350 to see what would happen and we were pleasantly surprised to find that it improved the charge from bottom to top, not quite the abrupt charge as the 250 did when it came 'on the pipe' but more a fluid smooth flow with a very noticable top end rush. I'm not very up on expansion chamber theory but I'm sure Lozza can explain why the different characteristics occured. My 350 has the same stroke as a 250 with a 400 top end so in essense it's an over bored 250. The 350 Maico is the only short stroke Maico they ever made which explains why they are so 'un Maico' in their power charecteristics. They even sound different to other Maicos, as Tony T pointed out to me at the Coffs Nats. The pipe really made that bike into the good performer it is though. The old girls very rooted right now after 16 years without a major rebuild so she'll enjoy a freshen up over the break and hopefully have another go at the pre 70 class at next years Nats.
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KEITH STACKER(AFTER NUMERIOS TRIPS TO THE FACTORY) TOLD ME THERE WAS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT THE BIKES THE FACTOY KEEPT TO RACE ,THEY WOULD BUILD 10 OR SO A DAY AND WACK THEM ON THE DYNO THE ONE THAT PROFORMED THE BEST WAS THE FACTORY RACER OR GIVEN TO WHO WAS THERE AT THE TIME AND PUT IN WITH THERE ORDER, ALL THE OTHERS WERE SHIPPED . SIMPLE AS THAT ,WHO EVER ADDED THE MAICO WORKS BIKE HYPE MUST OFF DONE IT IN OTHER COUNTRYS AFTER THEY ARRIVED , HE SAID THEY WERE BASICLY ALL THE SAME FROM A ITENERANT WORK FORCE WHO WOULD JUST GRAB ANYTHING AND BOLT IT TOGETHER THAT WHY THE NUMBERS ARE ALL OVER THE JOINT FROM COUNTRY TO COUNTRY,SO IM LED TO BELIEVE .
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THERE WAS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT THE BIKES THE FACTOY KEEPT TO RACE
WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING PAUL? ;D
That's true but each GP rider had their own setups and tuning tricks. The ex Adolf Weil 250 squarie that Per Klitland and later Chris Ellis rode is a good example. The crank was radically lightened and it was ported but other than that it was pretty standard. It was just the little things that each individual rider and his mechanic did to the individual bikes that made a difference. The Americans were a little different and they tricked their bikes up quite a bit. That's how the LTR frame came about. Steve Meridijan, the Wheelsmith shop manager told me that the Maico team were based at Wheelsmith Motorcycles during the '73 Trans-AMA series and when they saw the rear frame mod that Wheelsmith had been developing for local SoCal racers, the Euro boys had to have it done to their bikes. The factory heads weren't impressed but once Willi Bauer, Adolph Weil and Gaylon Mosier and Steve Stackable started dominating it wasn't long before the factory conveniently forgot the "no external mods team rules' and went with it. The LTR frame quickly went in to production not long after.
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sorry if i was too loud but i carnt find my reading glasses mark ;D
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Firko, is the 350 just a 250 with a 400 barrel or are they different cases and everything?
Roger
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a 350 is a 360
Errr!, I don't think so Paul. Check your facts again. ???
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Nope...Someones thrown you a dummy.
350 mk1, 350 mk2, 360 and 400 are all different.
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ok then fill us in :D
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Paul, The same bloke who told you a 350 and a 360 are the same engine reckons my 350 is a 400 so I guess I've been wrong all along and don't know what I've owned for the last 40 years ;)
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mmmm well im interested just the same in the specs
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Maicos:
250... 67x70=247cc
350....77x74=345cc (77x70=326cc (a small number of 326cc 350s were released at the end of the 350 run in 1970/1)
360....77x76=354cc
400....77x83=386cc
440....82x83=438cc
501....91x76=494cc
Paul, note the difference between the 350 and 360. They're very different bikes in both configuration and performance.
Firko, is the 350 just a 250 with a 400 barrel or are they different cases and everything?
Roger, all of the Maicos share the same basic crankcase casting but the size of the cylinder opening naturally differs between the 250, 400, 440 and 501. The 350/360/400 cases are identical.
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thanks firko /so performance difference is ?
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OOps forot all about this thread ;D
Whoa the AAEN pipe that really was their salad days fortunately(for them) they went on to BIGGER AND BETTER THINGS (http://www.aaenperformance.com/V4_racing_engine.asp) in the sled world.
Firko I suspect by looking at that pipe that it is simply a better pipe,especialy the design. Maico port timing seems very similar from the cylinders I have measured. I would agree with Geoff that your pipe looks it's a fraction to short.For instance I make my tuned length for an air cooled 125 road race bike around 900-950mm with peak power @ 12,000 rpm.
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All I know is that the pipe works Loz. That's all I need to know. I leave the theory and braniac diagnosis to you blokes who understand such stuff. It was worth nearly 5 hp over a Wheelsmith pipe* on the dyno so that'll do me.
*On the '73 250 radial it was originally built for. It feels better on the 350 as well but we haven't dynoed her.
thanks firko /so performance difference is ?
That's a subjective question that's very hard to answer Paul. The 350 and 326 are revier and to me much easier to ride and faster than the 400, especially on dirt track. I can't theorise why, it's just my feeling and that of many dirt trackers of the day where the 350 was a big sjuccess. The 350 works well in motocross as well but some would prefer the bigger bottom punch of the 400 and bigger again 440. I haven't ridden a 360 in years but assume it's somewhere in between, sorta like a slower 400. The power characteristics between the 350 and 400 are very different as Stacker will tell you.
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I wouldn't doubt it would outperform a period pipe.
I forgot to type previously that why would anyone save that AAEN pipe from the happy scrappy and then (what appears to be) advertise it for sale ??? ???
James smart operators in the US would see Jerry Hall in Pheonix and in Canada Darcy Rosintreter is the go to man. ;)
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Lozza..As ugly and old school inefficient as the Aaen pipe is, it's still a part of the development history of our sport so it deserves to avoid the 'happy scrappy' for that reason alone. As we've discussed before, the vintage movement isn't in place for the bikes to become rolling test beds for new age technology, turning them into something they were never intended to be. VMX is in place to celebrate various eras in our sports history by utilising the given parameters of the period using some modern tech ideas, mainly to maintain reliability. I have no problems with tricking a bike to the nth degree so long as the 'improvements' made to the bike are representative of the period in question. For that reason I'll use my Aaen pipe on my little Maico Metisse cheapo project because it represents what the hot rod motocross guys were using at the time.
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Don't forget to fit plastic levers, nylon sprockets and your anti-dive front end then......
Unfortunately everyone has a different idea on what 'some' is :D
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Unfortunately everyone has a different idea on what 'some' is
My point Loz was that although a thing is irrelevent or just plain wrong to modern eyes, at the time those parts were the result of somebody looking to find a new way of doing something and shouldn't be dismissed or sent to the scrap as you alluded to simply because they don't conform to our current way of thinking. All of those things you mention were good attempts at something different and shouldn't be dismissed simply because the idea failed. ;)
Unfortunately everyone has a different idea on what 'some' is
some to me is something that can't be seen....ignition, porting, engine internals, fork internals, that sort of thing.. Maybes are shocks, pipes and other parts, as long as they look period. I've been guilty myself in the past with fat pipes on my DT1, fluro pink plastic, and modern rims on old bikes but the older I get, the more I think we need to limit modern development on old bikes. If we don't enforce it we'll end up like classic road racing where some disgraceful stuff has passed muster for so long that a lot of period integrity is lost. ::)
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.........I have plastic levers, a no dive preston petty front end ( soon to go to Bahnsy ) and all that HI TECH stuff from the 70's,and the reason I kept it was, as Firko said, its a part of motorcycle history and something that we'll never see again !
Roger