OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Bike Talk => Topic started by: Graeme M on October 31, 2007, 05:43:37 pm
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I am about to buy a modern MXer, second hand of course. I haven't owned a contemporary dirtbike since 1985, so have no idea what today's bikes are like to ride, but I am looking forward to finding out.
What do I want? A reliable easy to ride racer. I am fastidious with maintenance, but not interested in spending hours on suspension/jetting setup. I want to race Amcross, grasstrack and maybe some local MX. I want plush suspension, tight handling, and in particular a confidence inspiring front end. I am no great shakes as a rider, so easy power, but enough to be competitive, would be good. That sounds like a 250F. I know the 2 strokes are good too, but I want something with a long, linear powerband as I tend to ride the peak of the powerband and like to wind my engine out.
I've narrowed the choice down to either the CRF Honda or YZF Yamaha. For the money I have to spend, around $6000, I'd guess I can go for an '04 or '05. Any thoughts on which is better, or what the strong points are, from anyone who's ridden or owned either?
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Graeme go for the YZ250 06/07. It pulls like a 4 stroke, the maintence is easy, the suspension is top of the line.
I have a YZF250. one of the yellow anniverary models and I like it but I did only buy it because it was yellow. If I was to buy a modern bike for the reasons you want one then I would buy the YZ250 2stroke. It got fanastic write ups in all the magazines. The only real draw back that I have heard of is that if you ride in really tight trails and its muddy then it can be a bit of a hand full to the inexperience.
Anyway thats my advice, take it or leave it ;D
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Have you looked at how cheaply you can get a brand new 2006 or 2007 YZ125? I've entertained a very similar idea in the semi-recent past, and while the 250Fs are faster, I know that the bike won't be the limiting factor...
I also know that a new 125 will be beautifully reliable, whereas I've been scared by the numerous stories of appauling reliablity of older 250Fs. And the cost of fixing them!
I rode the 07 RM125 at CD4, and it was great - a world ahead of my 94 TM125 (which I still love) and a galaxy ahead of my 84 YZ125. When the bike is so much better than this particular rider, it seemed stupid to spend more to add weight, reduce reliability, and increase maintenance.
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if you havent got the skills or money to pay some one to rebuild/maintain a modern 4 stroke engine, then go for a 2 stroke
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i hate to say this as a honda fan, but i have heard the valves wear way too quickly with the CRF250 so the yamaha may be a better choice.
i have a mate who is returning from O/S in December (been away since May) and will sell his 2005 YZ250 (2 Stroke) it has done VERY little work since he got it new (i can vouch for this, a few trail rides only and a club MX) not sure what he wants for it though.
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Graeme,
A little bit outside of the box, but I have ridden a '07 gas gas 300 2 stroke and it had power delivery of a fourstroke, absolutely awsome. From what I have read the new ktm 300's are the same and have an electric leg.
The bonus is they both can be rego'd for the odd trail ride when MX wears thin.
If I get my way (I always say that but never do) I will have one for christmas.
I would avoid a second hand 250 fourstroke like it had the plague, could be very expensive.
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ktm 300
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Yeah, KTM300's are good i got one and shit they go when you nail them , but have heaps of low/mid when you need it. i love it.
They certaintly would do the MX job as well if you pull all the ADR stuff off.
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yeah KTM 300's are good but please dont go too lean on the premix, ive just seen a 300's big end go bang from 50 to 1 with not a good enough oil, would hate to see it happen to anyone else!
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Hmmm, why don't you ask me something simple like 'which girl should I marry?' ::)
Yeah, it that kinda advice you ask. ;D
If was gonna race as described I would choose a two stroke; cheap and easy to maintain, cheap and easy to modify and cheap and easy to rebuild if it comes down to it. All the other running costs are about the same.
If I was gonna go enduro racing the easier to use, more tractable and flexible in use (you can ride harder and longer for less concentration and physical effort) comes into it's own (but I would still worry about a 'blow up' - an expensive repair (e.g. valves kissing the piston). A 'blow up' that you curse on a two smoke can 'write off' a four stroke (a seized engine been too exensive to fix given the total value of the bike).
I don't think there is much between the brands in feel, performance or reliability. Which colour do you like? :D
I would be think 250/300 but wouldn't rule out a Kattie 360 - has a violent kick in the arse to get your attention but a bit of tuning and heavier fdlywheel weights cnamake a BIG difference.
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Do you want to borrow my WR360?
It fits your criteria well.
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TM300 en the best 300 2t great suspension and brakes i just sold mine due to injury(shoulder reco) or if you have a lot of money one of the new 144s that TM and ktm make.ktm200 is also a good trail bike as well as the gas gas 300
cheers
jim g
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Hi Graeme, I've had the opportunity of riding a bunch of new bikes recently, all enduros except one. This is because I've been getting into trail riding this year in a big way... maybe I should explain in the 'Where are all the old boys' thread why I feel trail riding give me more 'bang for the buck' than racing these days.
Anyway, here's my impression of a bunch of modern bikes that I have ridden, smallest to largest:
2000 TM125 EN - typical 125 engine, keep it pinned and and it flies, great suspension and brakes, easy to flick aroung like a mountain bike (anyone want to buy it?)
2007 KTM200 EXC - plush ride, electric like power. Liked it so much I bought one.
2008 KTM200 EXC - not as plush, has an old fashioned powerband. Low end is like a 125 on 'roids then as the revs climb all hell breaks loose. Love it!
2006 CRF250X - Nice! snappy power (not as snappy as the 200 2T though). Really easy to chuck around. The owner has done 1400 kms since new and just paid $1400 for a top end rebuild! That's $1 per kilometre - not real good economy.
2007 CR250R - Last of the species. If the new Honda two strokes are supposed to be soft than the other brands must be awesome. Would be good on a MX track but for tight bush single tracks it needs to be tamed down. I reckon I'd be quicker on a 125 than this thing - it's got a bad atitude.
2007 WR450F - easy to see why they're so popular. Kind of like a Camry, does everything well but not spectacular.
2008 KTM450 EXC - the 4 stroke you have when you really want a 2 stroke! Very snappy, just wants to go hard all the time.
2007 Husky TE510 - Nice, plush! Feels like an old style 4 stroke, like a big friendly labrador. Then just when you think it's about time to change up it really gets up and goes like a greyhound with a rocket up it's arse!
2008 KTM530 EXC - Like a rocket with a rocket up it's arse! On fire trails the trees flash past so fast you feel like you're in a tunnel, I don't know how the fast guys ride these things on tight trails.
2005 Yami Raptor 660 - Not a bike but... bloody hell what a weapon. I would love to ride one on a flat dirt track but in the bush it's a real handful.
I've always thought that bike set up was limited to tyre pressure and lever position but after having the chance to sample other bikes back to back it's amaxing how adjustable the new bikes are.
I'm not a good enough rider to get the maximum out of any of those bikes but it's interesting to feel the subtle differences between them. The new 4 strokes are great to ride but I'd always be worried maintenance and repair costs. My new 200 two stroke is very nice.
All of those bikes are great to ride but the two that really stood out for me were the KTM200 and the Husky 510. Both are fantastic.
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Hi Guys,
Has anybody else noticed that we old blokes all seem to recommend a 2-stroke as the bike to own.
Must be an age thing [and commonsense].
VMX42
By the way, I agree. YZ, KTM, GasGas or Husky - can't really go wrong with any of them. I would probably go with the YZ unless of course you need rego then…
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vmx,
I was thinking about the same thing the other day, but to take the irony one step further, I have a fourstroke vintage bike. For me it's about reliability and smooth power.
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I too would have to recommend a Gas Gas 300. I have a 2005 and it's a great all rounder, can even take the lights off and do the odd mx club day. Pulls like a 4-stroke but with the ease of maintenance and light weight of a 2-stroke. Mine is still on the original piston as well, even after finishing the 24 Hour Trial this year. Trail riding, enduro competition, and commuting, I do it all with my beloved Gas Gas, it's the only modern bike I've owned that is more than just a tool for a purpose, I don't think I'll ever sell it.
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So Graeme, what have you decided ???
If you really want a 250 4 stroker then it has to be the YZF, it is the most reliable.
To all you other guys who have answered this thread, maybe you should re-read what Graeme asked ;) ;D
He wants a RACER, not a roadie come trailie ;D
Graeme, try before you buy, but I still say a YZ250 2-stroker is the bike you are looking for ;)
This is what Motocross Action (April 2007) had to say about it.
10 best bikes in 2007
Number 2 The YZ250
Yes, we know that everyone says that the 2 strokes are dead, but we arent stupid enough to believe that. After your've spent a few years racing a 4 stroke, you will be amazed by how much fun it is to throw a leg over a YZ250 2 stroke. This bike is a blast to ride, cheap to maintain, and amazingly competitive. This is a great bike for everyone but those who have been brainwashed.
(Number 1 on the list was the CRF450)
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You would have to say any 2 stroke for ease of maintenence and if you're scared of maintenence costs. As we all know you have to be 'on the pipe' to make use of a 2 stroke, 125 even more so. A four stroke is much easier.I have owned an '01,'03, '04 and '06 YZ250F. I buy new and sell at the end of season without doing any more than oil changes and shims. They are the most reliable and lowest to maintain.
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Well, after reading a lot of tests, browsing the web, looking at your replies etc, I think it looks like one of the following:
YZ125 05-07
YZ250 05-07
YZ250F 06-07
I still lean to the F cos I like the thought of that long linear power, but everything I read reckons the YZs have got great power for a 2-stroke. I noticed in one of the local sales websites a guy selling an 07 250T cos he was off OS, and he wanted $800. Either deal of the century or it really is HOT...
But... I think... I'll go for the YZ125, probably a good 06 or 07 if I can find one. I think the 250, while a good bike, may still be too explosive for me to really use fully. As I found with the CR500, too much power is not always a good thing. I want something light, chuckable, good steering, and which I can really wring the neck of and not feel intimidated.
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great
according to the worm real men ride 125's
how come iv'e just got myself a 500 :o
Noel
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I think the 250, while a good bike, may still be too explosive for me to really use fully. As I found with the CR500, too much power is not always a good thing. I want something light, chuckable, good steering, and which I can really wring the neck of and not feel intimidated.
It's not hard to change the characteristics of a two stroke - two base gaskets, thicker head gasket (KTM, for one, offers various head and base gaskets for this purpose ex stock) a different pipe (maybe), heavier flywheel weights, and these days, a tunable cdi box. You can make it a fourstroke and then on the side of the track during practice 'bolt off - bolt on' and go from mild to wild according to the conditions/tractions/your mood.
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Even better is Athena have a nice variable combustion chamber that floats with rpm.High comp low rpm, low at high rpm. So no need for any spanners. These days a good 125 can pump 40 odd usable hp out and do that on a piston and a ring every 6 months.
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Even better is Athena have a nice variable combustion chamber that floats with rpm.High comp low rpm, low at high rpm.
An Athena what ???
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Athena is the brand name of the variable height combustion chamber.Good upgrade even if you fix the height as the domes can be replaced/altered. VHM would do a similar kit and probably work better than the Athena.
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I noticed in one of the local sales websites a guy selling an 07 250T cos he was off OS, and he wanted $800. Either deal of the century or it really is HOT...
Or a bullshit ad placed by one of his mates as a laugh...
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A YZ125 is a great choice Graeme, and dont worry about kitting it out until you can keep it open everywhere ;D why spend money on an already good bike. Unless you want to be(or already are) at the pointy end and find that you need more power, otherwise isnt it just blinging out the bike ;D ???
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Graeme i got a 2006 YZ 125 and i wouldn't trade it for nothin :) The only modifications i have made is softer shock & fork springs as i am 12 stone dripping wet in all my gear and i retired from supercross when i turned 40.
It is an awsome little bike , i ride it mainly in enduros & cross country events and the occansional club MX
The last modern 125 i raced was a 2003 RM 125 and the YZ has a shit load more power every where espesially in the mid range and bottom end.
You are welcome to test ride the bugger when you come and ride a VMX here :) cheers Bill.
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While the modern 125s still go best when revved, don't go thinking that they're dogs when they're off song either.
The 07 RM that I rode, pulled harder and cleaner from low revs than several of the (vintage) 250s I own do... And I'm a big fat bastard for a 125....
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Look, I love my little RM125M, and it doesn't have a lot of bottom end at all!
Everything I've read and heard points to the YZ125, and just as I decided that, the universe clicked into gear. Tonight I mentioned my plans to a guy I was talking to and he said "Do you want to buy mine"? His bike turned out to be an 05 in immaculate condition, about 5 hours of use, a few nice goodies and still on original tyres, for the right price. Right there I said I'll take it - it should be in the vmxman garage next weekend...
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Cool Graeme, you must have patience, once I've said yes to something like that I would've wanted to go to his place straight away. But I surpose the wait will add the excitiment ;D.
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Oh, I saw the bike, it is like new. But he's not in town over the weekend, so will organise the sale etc next week. Just as long as he doesn't change his mind between now and then!
Looking good...
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Hi Graeme,
Are you bringing it to Clarence so we can all have a ride of your new toy 8)
Noel
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Sorry Noel, but I am staying home from Clarence to polish it! Well, not quite, but I won't be at Clarence as I havent got a vintage bike that's a goer right now. So, I guess it'll all have to wait till next year.
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Ahh now there ya go Graeme, ya better take TMBill's offer up to test ride his bike, just tell him not the modern one and say you will be over here for the 18 Nov for the second round of the VMX champs at Taupo, right where Bill lives ;D
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OK, just got the 125 home and it does indeed look nice. Pro Circuit pipe, VeeForce reeds, after market airfilter and so on. Should be fun. Best of all, one half hearted kick and it starts!!! How good is that after a steady diet of HL500s and Husky CR500s...
However, while looking for setup tips on the web I came across a thread on Dirtrider forums about problems with the bearing on the stopper lever (shift cam assembly) collapsing and wrecking the gearbox (part #5 in the diagram below).
Has anyone heard of this happening in Australia? Is there a fix?
(http://parts.yamaha-motor.com/partimage.gifx?d=60272,2,0)
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I hav no idea graeme, but I will ask at my local yammie shop and find out what they know. If it was that bad a problem then would they(yamaha) head a recall to fix the problem? Is it the bearing collapsing or the bolt coming undone because of no loctite and then the bearing gets chewed up and ceates havoc in the gearbox?
But glad you like the bike and I hope it serves you well.
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It seems to have been a problem mostly in the UK but I did read of it in the US too. Apparently the bearing itself is (allegedly) the wrong kind for the application, and it just collapses after maybe 15-20 hours of use.
The thread claimed some large number of UK bikes were affected, both 05 and 06 models, and that Yamaha wouldn't honour warranty with it.
I must admit I hadn't heard of any reliability problems with late model Yamaha two-strokes...
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I havnt heard anything either but I will ask around here. We have a modern club day 'natural terrian' on Sunday so I will ask a few guys there. Hopefully they can shead some light on the subject.
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I was beginning to wonder just what I'd let myself in for. First the matter of the stopper lever (bought a new one for under $50, just gotta fit it up), then came across a thread on the DirtRider forums about how bad the 05 YZ125 forks are.
According to this, the forks are 'negatively preloaded' by 5mm (the springs are 5mm too short...), the overall package is too soft, which causes all manner of terrible things to happen, and there was much debate about how to correct all that and also some damping problem. After reading a whole lot of stuff about changing the piston seal for a band and drilling a hole in the piston and removing the mid-valve and adding a spacer under the ICS spring and special ways to bleed TC forks and blokes debating the merits of 3mm preload vs 4mm preload, I felt I should just stick to 1975 RM125s... Still, just to pretend I knew what I was doing, I went and checked all the sag settings (does this really work? Every article I have ever read reckons that the sag at the rear should be about 100mm on every bike out there, and that's pretty much what they come with). Turns out everything was right on the money with what the DR forum guys reckoned. So how bad could it be?
I decided to ignore it all and finally go for that first ride.
Well, what a revelation. That thing flies, handles and soaks up the bumps like I couldn't believe. Peaky??? No way, it feels about on a par with a stock Evo 250, perhaps a shade less bottom end and not as smooth on the transition into the powerband. Brakes that work. No vibration... it just goes on. Yep, it really was THAT nice.
As for the suspension, well... it went up and down and seemed perfectly fine. I guess with some more time on it I might be able to pick the need for that 3mm preload, or maybe go up .1 in spring rate, or adjust that mid-valve... but probably not.
I'm a happy camper.
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I'm glad to hear you are happy Graeme. I have a 06 YZF250 and as far as I can tell the suspension goes up and down too, so for my riding ability its perfect. I think when ya get that good that ya need to have your suspenion fine tuned on a modern bike its time to talk turkey with a sponsor or two.
Have fun on the new new ;D ;D